Crackdown on lyrics sites, guitar tabs and song scores - geek/talk: Web publishing business discussion

**Larwee** · 12-14-2005, 12:06 AM

Beginning in January, 2006, the Music Publishers Association plans to issue take down notices to lyrics and guitar tabs sites.

They violate copyright laws and there has even been suggestions of sending violators to jail.

The president of the Music Publishers Association said that music fan operators didn't need to worry because they would only target big lyrics distributors. But some who have hobby sites have heard from music labels.

With lyrics, there is some confusion over who even owns the rights. The owner could be the songwriter, publisher or music label.

ASCAP, Music Publishers Association and music licensers have been working on standard lyrics license rates.

This is a very involved matter. Here are some articles that contains much more information about this http://www.redherring.com/Article.as...inmentAndMedia

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp...687&cat_id=643

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/edit...rics/index.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4524086.stm

e_d · 12-14-2005, 01:56 AM

Umm, as far as the guitar tabs go they will have some serious problems taking down these sites and I for one plan to keep my website going no matter what they do, and if my hosting is suspended well that's an easy fix. I use my own website more than my visitors do because I play guitar in all of my spare time. For the copyright issues the tabs are interpretations and if you look at it most guitar tabs are not entirely correct. Unlike Mr. Ritter, I do have the time and money to fight this.

Eriky · 12-14-2005, 05:07 AM

What's the situation in the US? Can you get licences? Because here in the Netherlands we can, but they'll cost a fortune.
If you have 50K of lyrics or tabs, you'll pay €25 per 1000 songs.
After paying that, you can publish your songs wordwide. But you have to be quite a big site to afford this.

Pilatus · 12-14-2005, 09:56 AM

Eriky you are talking about this right:
http://www.cedar.nl/musicopy/info-ge...naloogdigitaal
According to me you first have to pay 25€ per 1000 songs you offer. Then for every pageview you have to pay:

Quote:

B. Onder sponsoring/met reclame-inkomsten
Voor het laten downloaden van songteksten en/of muzieknotaties onder sponsoring of door sites met reclame-inkomsten, 15% van de inkomsten uit sponsoring, advertising, bartering, etc. met inachtneming van een minimumvergoeding van € 0,12 per werk.

So that's 120€/cpm; Kinda extreme don't you think.
Also I'm sure these guys only represent a very small amount of songwriters.

Eriky · 12-14-2005, 10:15 AM

No that's not correct. I'm sure that's what they ask (because I asked). But it's very unclear what the diffence is between the two. I'm trying to find that out..

Pilatus · 12-14-2005, 01:22 PM

Ok can you keep us informed please?

thegauntlet · 12-19-2005, 04:46 PM

I knew this day would come. Lyrics can easily be taken down according to the law. Tablature sites have already won court decisions in their favor as tablatures are considered to be someone interpretation of the song as someone listens to the song and transcribes what the guitar, bass, and drum parts sound like. You can buy licensing for your lyrics site, however the cost to license is more than you'll make in ad revenue.

Eriky · 12-19-2005, 05:16 PM

What you pay in the Netherlands is €25/1000 songs per month.
It's doable if you have enough traffic but you will have to cut down the number of songs that you display..

What's the situation in other countries?

Pilatus · 12-19-2005, 06:37 PM

If you are huge it's doable for the best performing songs....

In Belgium the music industry itself is under fire because if you host a rave you have to pay a fee to SABAM, it's the belgian RIAA , I think. But from investigation -> 90% of the songs played at a reggae party are not under SABAM license. But they still charge for it, kinda mafia isn't it

But on lyrics itself I have no clue.

**Larwee** · 12-19-2005, 07:26 PM

The Music Publishers' Association now says they will start their crackdown in early February rather than in January. They are determined to shut down websites which are illegally offering copyrighted sheet music.

They plan to send "cease and desist" letters to the web sites. They also plan to notify Internet service providers that they are hosting sites that are involved in illegal activity.

The Music Publishers' Association said they will not give specific information until after the "cease and desist" letters have been sent.

http://tinyurl.com/c7fo3

trialofmiles · 12-19-2005, 09:35 PM

I've been blogging about the crackdown, and this thread (and an older one I found) is a good resource for my research since I don't have any first hand experience running a lyrics/tab site. Just wanted to say thanks.

Rivux · 12-19-2005, 10:24 PM

We are going to see real quick how much the mpa really cares about this crackdown since finding lyric sites and who hosts them is so easy if we get too far into february and the top sites are still operational then we know its just a bunch of smoke and no fire.

**Czar** · 12-19-2005, 11:55 PM

A few of the major operators in the lyrics scene are current and former Geek/Talk members, so I expect this thread will become very heated as the first of the C&Ds are sent.

What's interesting is that many of the previous discussions on Geek/Talk about the legality of publishing lyrics have featured defensive comments along the lines of "[whatever huge site] publishes lyrics and reaches millions of visitors a month. If they haven't been shut down in 5 years, obviously it's no issue." Rivux is absolutely right that the MPA's actions, rather than words, will define the future of this content category. Most publishers of lyric sites know that they're treading on sketchy ground legally, but many will only change their activities if the MPA does actually commit to its claims.

trialofmiles · 12-20-2005, 12:04 PM

By the way, here's a previous geek/talk thread with a lot of good information about lyrics/tab sites and their legality.

http://www.geekvillage.com/forums/sh...threadid=26628

Eriky · 12-20-2005, 01:47 PM

I still didn't hear anyone about the current situation of licensing in the US.

There is a central organisation here in the Netherlands so I could run a legal song lyrics website. Problem is, I'll be one of the few that actually pay and won't survive easilly.

The organisation here in the Netherlands is called Musi©opy.

They claim to work on behalf of these publishers:

2P'sW Music
AMS Songs
Best Music
Beurskens Muziekuitgeverij
BMG Music Foreign
BMG Music Publishing BV
Boogie Woogie Muziekuitgeverij
Bruno Brands
BVP Music
Capricorn Music
CM Songs
De Haske Publications BV
Dutch Uncle Music
Eaton Music BV
EMI Catalogue Partnership Holland BV
EMI Music Publishing Holland BV
EMI Songs Holland BV
EMI Virgin Music Publishing Holland BV
Erven H. Bannink
Fabelmusic
Firma Smit & Schrama
Fleet Publishing S.A.
Hans van Hemert Prod BV
Harmonia BV
Iduna VOF
Intrada Muziekuitgave
IS Music
Jan Veldman
Jan Visser
JHN Music
Jingo Music
Koninklijke Vereniging v. Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis
Krips Music
Munich Publ Comp + Clef 87
Music & Words Publishing/Blue Kapibara
Music Creations Publishing
Muziekprodukties Cees Trapman
Muziekuitgeverij Laroo
Nanada Music
Nila Music
Noiret Publishing House
Paeon
Parallax
Peermusic Holland
Peter Power Publishing
Polygram Music Publishing
Reba Productions
Rogers Music
Rondor Music Holland
Solo Music
Sony/ATV Music Publishing
Spell Music
Strengholt Music Group
Tia Publishing
Tomek Music Publishing
Troje-Nevergreen
Uitgeverij de Toorts
Uitgeverij de Zilverdistel
Unisong Music Publishers BV
Violent Publishing
Well-Done Music

I'm wondering if this will cover enough lyrics to stay out of trouble.

12-14-2005, 12:06 AM	#1
Larwee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA Posts: 3,015	Crackdown on lyrics sites, guitar tabs and song scores Beginning in January, 2006, the Music Publishers Association plans to issue take down notices to lyrics and guitar tabs sites. They violate copyright laws and there has even been suggestions of sending violators to jail. The president of the Music Publishers Association said that music fan operators didn't need to worry because they would only target big lyrics distributors. But some who have hobby sites have heard from music labels. With lyrics, there is some confusion over who even owns the rights. The owner could be the songwriter, publisher or music label. ASCAP, Music Publishers Association and music licensers have been working on standard lyrics license rates. This is a very involved matter. Here are some articles that contains much more information about this http://www.redherring.com/Article.as...inmentAndMedia http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp...687&cat_id=643 http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/edit...rics/index.php http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4524086.stm Last edited by Larwee; 12-14-2005 at 12:09 AM.

12-19-2005, 05:16 PM	#8
Eriky Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 309	What you pay in the Netherlands is €25/1000 songs per month. It's doable if you have enough traffic but you will have to cut down the number of songs that you display.. What's the situation in other countries? Last edited by Eriky; 12-19-2005 at 05:19 PM.

12-19-2005, 07:26 PM	#10
Larwee Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: St. Louis, Missouri USA Posts: 3,015	Crackdown now to start in February, 2006 The Music Publishers' Association now says they will start their crackdown in early February rather than in January. They are determined to shut down websites which are illegally offering copyrighted sheet music. They plan to send "cease and desist" letters to the web sites. They also plan to notify Internet service providers that they are hosting sites that are involved in illegal activity. The Music Publishers' Association said they will not give specific information until after the "cease and desist" letters have been sent. http://tinyurl.com/c7fo3 Last edited by Larwee; 12-19-2005 at 07:30 PM.

12-19-2005, 11:55 PM	#13
Czar Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia Posts: 9,507	A few of the major operators in the lyrics scene are current and former Geek/Talk members, so I expect this thread will become very heated as the first of the C&Ds are sent. What's interesting is that many of the previous discussions on Geek/Talk about the legality of publishing lyrics have featured defensive comments along the lines of "[whatever huge site] publishes lyrics and reaches millions of visitors a month. If they haven't been shut down in 5 years, obviously it's no issue." Rivux is absolutely right that the MPA's actions, rather than words, will define the future of this content category. Most publishers of lyric sites know that they're treading on sketchy ground legally, but many will only change their activities if the MPA does actually commit to its claims. __________________ Czar Follow Geek/Talk's Twitter Feed and Facebook Page to stay up to date with new discussion threads and online ad industry highlights. Important GeekVillage Links: Home \| Rules \| Posting Guide \| Report Trouble \| Feedback \| Advertise on GV

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12-14-2005, 01:56 AM	#2
e_d Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 197	Umm, as far as the guitar tabs go they will have some serious problems taking down these sites and I for one plan to keep my website going no matter what they do, and if my hosting is suspended well that's an easy fix. I use my own website more than my visitors do because I play guitar in all of my spare time. For the copyright issues the tabs are interpretations and if you look at it most guitar tabs are not entirely correct. Unlike Mr. Ritter, I do have the time and money to fight this.

12-14-2005, 05:07 AM	#3
Eriky Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 309	What's the situation in the US? Can you get licences? Because here in the Netherlands we can, but they'll cost a fortune. If you have 50K of lyrics or tabs, you'll pay €25 per 1000 songs. After paying that, you can publish your songs wordwide. But you have to be quite a big site to afford this.

12-14-2005, 10:15 AM	#5
Eriky Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 309	No that's not correct. I'm sure that's what they ask (because I asked). But it's very unclear what the diffence is between the two. I'm trying to find that out..

12-14-2005, 01:22 PM	#6
Pilatus Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 164	Ok can you keep us informed please?

12-19-2005, 04:46 PM	#7
thegauntlet Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 515	I knew this day would come. Lyrics can easily be taken down according to the law. Tablature sites have already won court decisions in their favor as tablatures are considered to be someone interpretation of the song as someone listens to the song and transcribes what the guitar, bass, and drum parts sound like. You can buy licensing for your lyrics site, however the cost to license is more than you'll make in ad revenue.

12-19-2005, 06:37 PM	#9
Pilatus Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 164	If you are huge it's doable for the best performing songs.... In Belgium the music industry itself is under fire because if you host a rave you have to pay a fee to SABAM, it's the belgian RIAA , I think. But from investigation -> 90% of the songs played at a reggae party are not under SABAM license. But they still charge for it, kinda mafia isn't it But on lyrics itself I have no clue.

12-19-2005, 09:35 PM	#11
trialofmiles Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 22	I've been blogging about the crackdown, and this thread (and an older one I found) is a good resource for my research since I don't have any first hand experience running a lyrics/tab site. Just wanted to say thanks.

12-19-2005, 10:24 PM	#12
Rivux Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ontario Posts: 293	We are going to see real quick how much the mpa really cares about this crackdown since finding lyric sites and who hosts them is so easy if we get too far into february and the top sites are still operational then we know its just a bunch of smoke and no fire.

12-20-2005, 12:04 PM	#14
trialofmiles Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 22	By the way, here's a previous geek/talk thread with a lot of good information about lyrics/tab sites and their legality. http://www.geekvillage.com/forums/sh...threadid=26628

12-20-2005, 01:47 PM	#15
Eriky Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 309	I still didn't hear anyone about the current situation of licensing in the US. There is a central organisation here in the Netherlands so I could run a legal song lyrics website. Problem is, I'll be one of the few that actually pay and won't survive easilly. The organisation here in the Netherlands is called Musi©opy. They claim to work on behalf of these publishers: 2P'sW Music AMS Songs Best Music Beurskens Muziekuitgeverij BMG Music Foreign BMG Music Publishing BV Boogie Woogie Muziekuitgeverij Bruno Brands BVP Music Capricorn Music CM Songs De Haske Publications BV Dutch Uncle Music Eaton Music BV EMI Catalogue Partnership Holland BV EMI Music Publishing Holland BV EMI Songs Holland BV EMI Virgin Music Publishing Holland BV Erven H. Bannink Fabelmusic Firma Smit & Schrama Fleet Publishing S.A. Hans van Hemert Prod BV Harmonia BV Iduna VOF Intrada Muziekuitgave IS Music Jan Veldman Jan Visser JHN Music Jingo Music Koninklijke Vereniging v. Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis Krips Music Munich Publ Comp + Clef 87 Music & Words Publishing/Blue Kapibara Music Creations Publishing Muziekprodukties Cees Trapman Muziekuitgeverij Laroo Nanada Music Nila Music Noiret Publishing House Paeon Parallax Peermusic Holland Peter Power Publishing Polygram Music Publishing Reba Productions Rogers Music Rondor Music Holland Solo Music Sony/ATV Music Publishing Spell Music Strengholt Music Group Tia Publishing Tomek Music Publishing Troje-Nevergreen Uitgeverij de Toorts Uitgeverij de Zilverdistel Unisong Music Publishers BV Violent Publishing Well-Done Music I'm wondering if this will cover enough lyrics to stay out of trouble.