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Scuba
08-20-2002, 12:57 PM
For sites who live from PopUps and banners, if they will be blocked, it's better to loose the visitors - Even if they are 7% or more - but not to loose server cost in the form of bandwidth.
Sorry but if you are running your website for money that's the simple fact. Number of visitors will drop but so is server cost and to block a IP range is much much more simple then detecting users on a personal basis.


For the people here who run ad and PopUp networks -
Do yourself and your publishers a favor and help them fight the ad blockers. Help developing anti blockers scripts, help keeping track of "to ban" IP ranges and such.
the same way that you let a publisher select a diferant code that can generate a popup or not and such, Enable publishers to select banner and popup code with built in Anti Blocking code.
Make a diferance, Show you care.

lmergen
08-20-2002, 01:05 PM
Hi JustMe, and welcome on board :)

I certainly agree very much with your post. The problem with nowaday's advertisements is that they generally do not interrest the visitors. To bring up an example : my visitors are averaging 12-18 years of age, about 5% not falling under that age group... I have told advertisement companies that a million times, and yet they keep advertising for VISA, and after that, they complain that I have such a low CTR. Then they start using pop-ups on my site ("I don't even make break-even with your site, so it is the banner ads WITH the pop-ups or no ads at all") , and scare the visitors away even more, driving them angry.

But the problem again is for sites with less than, say, 5 million pageviews / month, it is almost impossible to sell only ads that interrest the visitors (e.g. running your own sales team) .

But I really think that is the only option to do advertisements without "annoying" the visitor...

Steve_S
08-20-2002, 02:32 PM
Respectfully, it would be informative to see more "Merchant" on topic comments in this thread. How about it?

So far, Robert has spoken and thanks. We have dozens of you that visit this Forum every week.

Thank you

jnestor
08-20-2002, 02:42 PM
Blocking the blockers is really only a temporary step. Someday the blocking will be the default option in all the browsers and there will be more blockers than non-blockers. At this point we move to the next logical step in internet ad delivery - full page interstitials. I'm pretty much convinced it will come about sooner or later.

Actually I wouldn't so much mind it if the pops were replaced with full pages. The pops are abused by typo squaters. There's not really a good way to abuse the interstitials. More money for the legit content sites and less for the low lifes. No annoying collection of windows to close for the surfer. Should be fairly easy to ensure that they're not being blocked. Everyone "wins" though the surfer now has to sit through commercials just like on tv.

JustMe
08-20-2002, 02:42 PM
@Scuba:

Sounds logic...but for really busy sites not true...You get 10Mbit unmetered connections for 400$, that are 3164 GByte/Month...a 100KB page costs then 0,001 cent...using an ad blocker software costs CPU time...and from a rough calculation *sigh* ...the CPU time costs more...so not blocking leechers is cheaper...;)

@lmergen:

Thanks,
From a rough calculation I can finance my site using page compression and other stuff even when I reject all ads I don't like, with 60-90% defaults...problem is that there are not enough ad serving companies that I find acceptable and my site is pretty international...and not all accept my site of course... With 50 million pageviews for my tech site I could sell all my adspace myself and earn money for several employees...marketing people from different big companies try already now to have a good relationship to my site...they just prefer to "pay" in hardware...from my calculations they pay often 10$+CPM this way...just to avoid banners...which shows how bad their reputation really is...but it shows that if you use concepts that are interesting for big companies they really pay and you can avoid the big black hole of ruining your adspace for ridiculous low amounts of money....

What would be needed that would be a quality certificate that advertisers and websites use. Websites with that sign may only show approved banners and no popups...ad companies sell adspace for such sites only for 300% money they normally would take...

@Steve_S:

True...:)

BlazeBox
08-20-2002, 03:10 PM
Guys,

How about the following statement that has been vented by some in the past?

Only people who do not interact with online ads will be tempted to install and use pop-blockers. Since these people are not valuable to advertisers, advertising results will increase since ads are being shown to a smaller, yet more responsive group of internet users, ultimately raising CPM and maybe even bringing in more than just a compensation for the lost impressions.

Sidenote: I couldn't make up whether *all* Earthlink members will automatically block pops, so I'm not sure whether this idea is applicable on this situation.

Have a great day,

Mike

Scuba
08-20-2002, 03:45 PM
But after thinking about it little more,

The ad market is allready down and after last years popup hellhols it look like blockers will be the next thing.
Maybe some ISP's that also have an ad serving company will not market them, but I am sure that most ISP's around the world don't have this type of properties at there posession and they can only benefit from reducing the bandwidth, even if just in a bit...

My suggestion will be to invest in Pay per View sites, micro payment ideas and such, because it seem that much sooner then we antisipated there will not be much other choice to make money in the webmaster buisness :(

kryton
08-20-2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by 00FUN

Originally posted by Lil_Red
In over 4 years of dealing with advertisers and ad networks, I have rarely dealt with an advertiser who has ever had a clue what they want.


Ouch!

If you look at the majority of advertisers on networks like Max World Wide, many of them are not Internet oriented companies, so it is probably true to say many of them do not understand the Internet, and hence they probably don't know what they want.

tonyd203
08-21-2002, 12:32 PM
When pop killers execute, do they try to load the window first and then kill the pop? or do they look for the presence of JS code and then kill them.

Also, does the pop get killed within seconds or does is display first then close it down?


We are looking at several ways to avoid pop-killers killing our clients ads and depending on the way how this software works will dictate which ideas we try to implement.

PaulT
08-21-2002, 01:39 PM
I *think* most look for the javascript code that loads the pops and disable / delete this from the page, before the pop loads.

lmergen
08-21-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by BlazeBox
Only people who do not interact with online ads will be tempted to install and use pop-blockers. Since these people are not valuable to advertisers, advertising results will increase since ads are being shown to a smaller, yet more responsive group of internet users, ultimately raising CPM and maybe even bringing in more than just a compensation for the lost impressions.

I do not agree with this. Many of the banner advertisements also take care of branding. When a person doens't WANT to see the ad, it doesn't mean he DOESN'T see the ad. And, if you target the ads well enough, the advertisement probably even interrests the person.

I can easily take a site like www.mpogd.com as an example. It's a list of online games. That site has ONLY targetted advertisements (highly targetted) and I have advertised for 2 months on that site and got a 4.3% CTR with a standard animated gif. Yet, they still have many people that use an ad-blocker just because OTHER sites feature advertisements that do not interrest them.

Sidenote: I couldn't make up whether *all* Earthlink members will automatically block pops, so I'm not sure whether this idea is applicable on this situation.

I believe they defaultly block all sites, and you can manually allow a site/zone to display pop-ups.

tonyd203
08-21-2002, 02:06 PM
I believe that if pop-killer software detects the java script associated with the pop, the logic that most ad networks have to not count until the pop is fully loaded or has a delayed count should kick in to still count correctly, however this does reduce ones revenue ...

my 2 cents worth

lmergen
08-21-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by tonyd203
I believe that if pop-killer software detects the java script associated with the pop, the logic that most ad networks have to not count until the pop is fully loaded or has a delayed count should kick in to still count correctly, however this does reduce ones revenue ...

Currently, a pop-up blocker checks each javascript executed. So for example, it fetches the remote javascript of an ad agency. Then it checks if it is a pop-up, if so, remove the pop-up code.

The ad agency does not count the ad requests, but rather counts the load of the pop-up. I am not sure if all images are included in this, but I do know that in most cases the HTML code for the pop-up itself is included in this.

Any professional who does know this?

Scuba
08-21-2002, 04:09 PM
Not clean and nice to do but one can print all of the material in the site using JavaScript, PopUp's, and banner code included.
Make so much JS code that the blocker will not be able to destinguish the real code from the PopUp one.
also there will probably a need to use ad proxy servers that will make the graphics show as they come from the site and not a ad network.

It will be a long battle, but in most cases, if some one will try a ad blocker and be hit with not loading sites, he will dump the blocker very fast. :p

Hiccups
08-22-2002, 03:27 AM
"It prevents new windows from spawning, and users have the ability to turn it on or off because there are some sites where the user may want pop-up ads," Anderson said. "It is specifically aimed at consumers who would like to regain control of their Internet experience."

Is it really that good an idea to block ALL Earthlink users considering that some of them may not even have it turned on?

lmergen
08-22-2002, 03:36 AM
Offcourse it isn't a good idea to block all earthlink users...

I mean, just because they don't see any pop-ups, doesn't mean they don't see any advertisements. Especially not if being earthlink doesn't mean not seeing any pop-ups.

I think just using an anti-ad blocker is far more effective...

Wiggum
08-22-2002, 09:42 AM
I am currently in discussions with a leading copyright attorney regarding this issue. We are planning to file a class-action suit against several of the software companies who produce pop-up blockers.

The success of this suit will largely depend on getting other web publishers or ad networks to join us in the class action. If you are interested in participating or would like more information, please send me a private message.

The suit will require little time on your part and no fee.

Feel free to extend this invitation where applicable.

maddeningcrowds
08-22-2002, 10:23 AM
> Offcourse it isn't a good idea to block all earthlink users...

Well no it might be a good idea, because if you point them to a page explaining why you're blocking them and listing Earthlinks contact details, this would put a lot of pressure on Earthlink to remove the program from their offering.

Robert from SI
08-22-2002, 01:02 PM
>>>>>>>>
Well no it might be a good idea, because if you point them to a page explaining why you're blocking them and listing Earthlinks contact details, this would put a lot of pressure on Earthlink to remove the program from their offering.
>>>>>>>>>

Exactly. A polite message stating: Earthlink cannot properly display this website. Please contact Earthlink customer support at 800-719-4660 or email support@earthlink.com.

Simple, polite, truthful, and to the point.

Earthlinks surfers are not going to make or break anyone. But you're sliding down a very slippery slope if web publishers start to allow ISP's to determine if and how they will be able to generate income.

Robert from SI
08-22-2002, 02:29 PM
These appear to be all of Earthlink's IP blocks:


207.217.0.0 --> 207.217.255.255
209.179.0.0 --> 209.179.255.255
207.69.0.0 --> 207.69.255.255

Steve_S
08-22-2002, 02:45 PM
Our data for members email of record with this BB:

earthlink: 44 members
msn: 33
aol: 296

I suspect that those of you who run much largers forums and or membership sites would have different numbers/% Even opt-in list data could be usefull. We must have millions of these :)

Can you please share these with us?

havaloc
08-22-2002, 04:08 PM
Why sue? Why not just adapt? There is a technological solution to this 'problem'.

If you sue, you just bring publicity to the cause and more users will say, 'hey, that's a good idea, blocking pop up ads!'

Look no further than to the music industry, who sued Napster, and basically accomplished nothing, but piqued the interests of many people out there and created the file sharing movement.

Flash forward to this week. Before the RIAA sued ISPs to cut off access to listen4ever, I had never heard of that site.

Since the music industry doesn't adapt, they'll soon be obsolete, as will publishers who don't adapt. You can't sue because the business model is changing. The consumer/customer is king and they are speaking. Are you listening?

Originally posted by Wiggum
I am currently in discussions with a leading copyright attorney regarding this issue. We are planning to file a class-action suit

jnestor
08-22-2002, 04:27 PM
There are two problems with blocking EarthLink users:

1) EarthLink isn't blocking pops. They are just making software available to their customers that blocks pops. This is a very important distinction that seems to be lost on many here.

2) No everyone who uses EarthLink will be using the software.

On another note there was an interesting Washington Post article about this all: The perils of an ad free web.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47050-2002Aug21.html

At least the author acknowledges that there will be consequences to reducing the advertising dollars that publishers can earn. And it's pretty ironic that you'll most likely get a pop-under when you go to read the article.

John

Wiggum
08-22-2002, 05:16 PM
Why sue? Why not just adapt? There is a technological solution to this 'problem'.

Adapt? So what happens when all ADs are blocked - further adaption?

If someone were systematically tearing out ads from magazines do you think that industry would simply "adapt" to the problem?

Polar
08-22-2002, 06:09 PM
I read on the Earthlink site that their pop-up blocker had a feature that would allow you to view thumbnails of the blocked pop-up windows. This means that the pop-up windows are actually loaded, they just aren't being shown to the surfer. Doesn't this mean that the web publisher would be credited the pop-up (if CPM), and that it would be the loss of the ad network / advertiser?

ChrisK
08-23-2002, 01:18 AM
Here is the language I included on my page which is displayed when an ad-blocker is detected:

You may not view this webpage because our software has detected that you are using ad-blocking/ad-removal software.

This website's continued operation and success is dependent solely on advertising revenue, which helps us to cover the large costs associated with running an internet site of this magnitude. By blocking advertisements, you are not only depriving the operators of this site of valuable funds to continue to operate the site, but you are commiting copyright law violations by modifying copyrighted source code.

Users utilizing Earthlink as their internet service provider may have had such software installed and activated on their computer without their knowledge. If you are using Earthlink to connect to the internet, and have received this message, please contact Earthlink customer support at 800-719-4660 or email support@earthlink.com.

For those users deliberately using an ad-blocking program, please disable the program while you attempt to use our website. Once the program is disabled, you will be able to immediately begin enjoying the benefits this free resource provides.

If you feel that you have received this message in error, or you are not using ad-blocking software, please e-mail technical support and we'll attempt to help you resolve the problem.