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Old 06-01-2001, 12:02 PM   #1
ehudal
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No CPC merchents? so they have problem with fraud and their soultion for that is to cancel the programs?
Why not have some sort of "creative" soutlion,like not allowing affailtes to join CPC merchents until after a couple of pay cycles,provide proof of traffic,etc... why just cancel them? they must be in real $$$ problems if take such drastic steps...

Ehud
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Old 06-01-2001, 12:08 PM   #2
OC
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Quote:
Originally posted by ehudal:
Why not have some sort of "creative" soutlion,like not allowing affailtes to join CPC merchents until after a couple of pay cycles,provide proof of traffic,etc... why just cancel them? they must be in real $$$ problems if take such drastic steps...
Ehud
I'm pretty sure cheats and ****mers would just find a way around something like that. Example: accounts that have been around more than X amount of months at CJ would just become a commodity for them.
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Old 06-01-2001, 12:14 PM   #3
ehudal
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Quote:
Originally posted by OC:
Quote:
Originally posted by ehudal:
Why not have some sort of "creative" soutlion,like not allowing affailtes to join CPC merchents until after a couple of pay cycles,provide proof of traffic,etc... why just cancel them? they must be in real $$$ problems if take such drastic steps...
Ehud
I'm pretty sure cheats and ****mers would just find a way around something like that. Example: accounts that have been around more than X amount of months at CJ would just become a commodity for them.

There is always a way to "go around" something,but you can make it diffuclt for ****mers to do so. right now every cheater can simply sign up for cj get accepted to a couple of CPC programs and cheat them. so why not make it harder for them? like creating "membership levels" for example somone who has "been around" cj for a couple of month,and been PAID(leads or sales) for lets say three payout cycles,gets his "statue" upgraded and can start joining CPC programs. better then the current soultion of signing up,applying,cheating.
Or even submitting a credit card and agreeing to have it charged in case of fraud,etc...
No soultion is prefect,but its better then solving the problem by elimnating the programs.

Ehud
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Old 06-01-2001, 12:19 PM   #4
Czar

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So the trend is:

The buyer's market is killing CPM.
Cheaters are killing CPC.

Now, publishers must accept a major part of the responsibility for generating leads and sales for their partners, or they (we) will die next.

I must say, I'm surprised that CJ's attempts to protect their CPC system against fraud weren't more successful than this. Many publishers on this very board found out first-hand that CJ were increasing their diligence in tracking down bot-cheats.

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Old 06-01-2001, 12:22 PM   #5
BrianClark
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Wow, you folks are fast! I was still getting some articles up about all the changes happening at CJ -- some of them controversial, some of them wonderful, all of them ballsy (can I say that here?) -- when I see that the debate has already started waging.

Just to complete the story ... CJ announced a number of sweeping changes, and those that are angering merchants are just part of them. Far more substantial, in my opinion, is their decision to publish "earnings per click" for every merchant and affiliate: affiliates will be able to evaluate each merchant based upon their network-wide earnings per click, and merchants will be able to evaluate new affiliate applicants based upon their average EPC across all CJ merchants.

Personally, I think that aspect of the changes are amazingly wonderful -- finally, some real statistics on what merchants are actually generating income that doesn't require each of us to burn part of our inventory trying them out.

Hate to plug a bunch of URLs, but the core of the story is:

"CJ to Publish Detailed Metrics" http://www.revenews.com/archives/00000097.html

and ... the one I'm most interested in hearing this group's thoughts on, the comparison between CPC, CPM and predictive EPC:

"Behind Curtain Number Three ..." http://www.revenews.com/archives/00000095.html

Cheers,


Brian Clark
Producer, ReveNews.com
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Old 06-01-2001, 12:24 PM   #6
Robert from SI
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I'm in fairly regular contact with the head of the fraud team at CJ. They are very sharp and completely up on their game. CJ has tremendous resources and it appears that they have just decided to wash their hands of it.

I know I sound like a broken record...but fraud is the #1 issue for CPC based advertising. That's why Si is as strict as we are. If your not, you're out of business.....like 90% of all cpc networks are nowadays.

It's truly a shame that the "baby's are thrown out with the bathwater" and honest, productive webmasters cannot participate in CPC campaigns.
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Old 06-01-2001, 12:40 PM   #7
Czar

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Quote:
Far more substantial, in my opinion, is their decision to publish "earnings per click" for every merchant and affiliate:
That's an exciting development, indeed. In fact, you may have noticed that the very possibility of implementing a system such as this was discussed here just a week or so ago.

Who knows, maybe Matt took the idea back to the CJ team to encourage the transition?

At least, I'd love to think that Geek/Talk had that kind of influence. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/wink.gif Most likely, though, this was a long time in the making.

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Old 06-01-2001, 12:51 PM   #8
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CJ publishing earnings per click does seem like a great development for affilaites. especially if it shows system wide results.

The better programs will float to the top and get stronger...the weaker programs will sink to the bottom and go away.

I think if I was a CJ merchant I'd be trying to pre-qualify my traffic using as much info as possible on the creative. get your EPC as high as possible by eliminated non-qualified clicks. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

Good for all parties concerned. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Old 06-01-2001, 01:19 PM   #9
JP Sauve
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This is a very bad day for both CJ affiliates & merchants. I don't know if
I'm most upset as a merchant or as an affiliate!

CPC will be gone, hurting those affiliates that bank on it. Low paying,
but high converting merchants also lose out by the 50% more fees and the
higher minimum lead rate. Not to mention the affiliates that advertise them.

The Chocolate Page sponsor, he pays something like 15-18 cents per lead
at CJ. I'd very surprised if they stick around. Same thing with Win Handbags,
QuickSweep, and a host of other merchants I advertise. The Free Dish Network
pays $50 per lead on CJ. Think they'll keep it at that rate now? Doubtful.

Most merchants will stick it out, as really there's nowhere else to go, but
I'm guessing in most cases these extra fees will somehow be passed down
to the affiliate in either a lower conversion or a lower pay rate. If you think
this mostly effect merchants, you are wrong.


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Old 06-01-2001, 01:25 PM   #10
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"CPC will be gone, hurting those affiliates that bank on it."

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with that: you're making the assumption that CPC income is what ... better than CPA? more reliable than CPA? Looks like from another thread here that people are getting pretty good effective CPM from CJ merchants: aren't those a mix of program types?

I'm not trying to be argumentative ... but maybe I don't understand why CPC models are important to all of you. Can someone present an example or a case study of where CPC is preferable over a CPA program that pays the equivalent EPC?
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Old 06-01-2001, 01:33 PM   #11
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I agree in that I prefer CPA myself, but truth is there's are a
fair number of webmasters that hunt the CPC only model.

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Old 06-01-2001, 01:33 PM   #12
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The problem earlier was finding programs that pay you an equivalent EPC. However with CJ's new "Open Marketplace" plan this may be a thing of the past. The only problem that still exists is that you don't know how your individual site will perform. I guess we have to just wait and see.

[This message has been edited by Kaiosama (edited 06-01-2001).]
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Old 06-01-2001, 01:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Actually, I'm not sure I agree with that: you're making the assumption that CPC income is what ... better than CPA? more reliable than CPA? Looks like from another thread here that people are getting pretty good effective CPM from CJ merchants: aren't those a mix of program types?
Brian, although many of us have seen (and experienced) solid effective CPM rates from specific, targeted CPA programs through CJ, it has long been the case that the casino CPC programs have produced higher effective CPMs on average. this has been the result of high CTR 'trick' banners, that convert best in a CPC situation.

The death of CJ's CPC system is likely going to see the downfall of a few publishers, especially those in the entertainment sector, who have had trouble converting leads and sales, and who have gained no support from the CPM and large CPC agencies.

Certainly, I agree with your inference that $1 effective CPM derived from CPA programs is the same as $1 effective CPM derived from clicks, but there are sites out there that that are going to have to seriously rethink their site design, content and core revenue sources in order to maximise their post-click conversion ratios.


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Old 06-01-2001, 01:42 PM   #14
kerplunk
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CJ is dumb. I'm sorry, but now they are just another onResponse.com.

I personally HATE CPA -- it's the biggest **** ever. It's like sending free traffic to sites and if they happen to sign up for their site then they get money... woopie.
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Old 06-01-2001, 01:55 PM   #15
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You may not realize it yet but in my opinion this is going to be remembered as a black day for both affiliates + merchants.

I suspect the pricing change is going to trigger another exodus of merchants, especially those with the e-mail capturing type programs.

Any merchant that pays less than $1 per lead, and there are tons of programs, many of them good, are going to be stung badly by this. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some of those who stick to the network, cut affiliate commissions so as to cover their increased CJ costs.

Next you get the issue of the ratings. Yes from from each individual affiliates point of view, it would be nice, ahead of time, to know how the program performs on average, but I think we nearly all have experience of programs that work for us - but which other people say doesn't work.

However when affiliates select programs, I suspect most everybody's choices will be driven by these ratings. What might happen then is programs that could work very well on many affiliate sites, possibly including yours, will never grow large enough for it to be economic for the merchant to devote time + resources to managing the program, and given the churn rates for affiliates, even some existing, valid, respectable programs may slowly die.

If this happens, affiliates lose twice:
(1) less choice of programs in the short-run (including programs that could have worked on your site if they had remained viable)
(2) if enough programs are killed, I wonder if anybody will be making money if virtually everybody is promoting the same few top rated programs.

Finally there is still one more unpleasant effect: some merchants may start trying to lose certain valid affiliates so as to bump their average numbers up. If you happen to be one of these, I don't expect you to be smiling come July 2nd.



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