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Old 03-17-2005, 04:04 PM   #1
Lavation
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Question PageRank?

I just don't get it.

Sometimes my pages, which do not change, will have a pagerank of anywhere from 4-6, then a year later 0.

How important is PageRank? I know everyone demands a high pagerank when selling a site but I just went to Amazon, which has a PageRank of 0 but is indexed by Google with 4,930,000 pages.

Should I care about the ranking?

Thanks for your help!
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:43 PM   #2
Larwee

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No!

How was that for a nice simple answer Lavation.

This is one of the things I keep saying over and over. A lot of people put way too much importance on PageRank. As a result a lot of people think it is more important than it really is.

I hate it when someone is trying to sell a site and makes a big issue about their PageRank.

I want to know where you are in the search results for the important keywords or terms.

While I'm not interested in the PageRank, I do care if you did anything that search engines don't like in order to have that PageRank that could later cause the site to receive a penalty when it is discovered.

The same is true of where you are in the search engine results pages. While that is important, I still am interested in knowing if anything was done to trick the search engines that would later be discovered and cause the site to receive a penalty.

How many people visit the site would also be important. A higher PageRank doesn't guarantee more visitors than one with a lower PageRank.

PageRank is one of well over a hundred factors involved in the determination of the search rank postions.

So, should you care about your PageRank? No! Should you care about where you are in the search results? Yes!

Without the use of spam tactics often a site will place higher in the search results than a site with a higher PageRank.

A while back I started this thread related to PageRank http://www.geekvillage.com/forums/sh...threadid=26464
No one responded to it, but you might want to take a look at it. Sometimes a post just gets lost when a lot of other people are posting within the same period of time.

PageRank is good for the ego. A person might be thrilled about his PR 6 site, while another person has a similar site that is PR 4 that places much higher than his in the search engine results pages and then someone else has a PR 3 site that makes more money than those other two combined.

It isn't unusual for a site with a PR 3 or PR 4 to rank first in the search results. That is what counts. It is better to be number 1 in the results even if you have a lower PageRank than someone else who is on the second page of the results.

You can optimize your site and really help yourself without doing anything illegal as far as search engines are concerned.

What people need to do is concentrate on their visitors and forget about the search engines. Do your site with your visitors in mind and do everything possible to make it the very best possible. Be certain that it is useful to your visitors and that they will really like it.

If you do this, over time things will take care of themselves. Among other things people will like your site and link to it without even being asked to do so. If you do everything you can do to make your site the very best possible with your visitors in mind, the search engines will like it too and you'll end up placing in a good position in the search engine results pages.

In short, forget about PageRank and only have your visitors in mind with everything you do with your site.

Last edited by Larwee; 03-17-2005 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 03-17-2005, 06:31 PM   #3
Czar

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Ditto. I've been on the anti-PageRank bandwagon for years. Google PR is one of the biggest red herrings in the business, but for some reason minor operators and search engine optimisers looking for bragging rights often refer to PR as though its ranking gold.

I can't tell you how many of my own sites I've seen lose or gain PageRank without any tangible effect on the site's position in Google SERPs. Net-Ads.com, for example, has an amazing PR of 8 for many years. Last I checked, it was about a 4, but continues to hold positions as good or better than in those heady days in almost all related search terms.

I honestly believe that Google now uses PR more to distract wanna-be SEOs and search spammers from the factors that will always logically remain important in determining a site's ranking, that being:
- Contextual relevance of a particular page to the rest of the site.
- Inbound link volume and quality
- Level of authority the site is perceived to hold in its niche
- Natural keyword density
- Domain name and URL string
- Title tags
- H1 text
- etc

A zero PR is never good as it can sometimes result in sites being excluded from search results altogether (blacklisted domains, for example, will be assigned a 0 PR). As far as rankings within the 3-10 range are concerned, however, there's little to no difference that PageRank variations will bring. The most measurable difference will simply be the number of desperate so-called SEOs and Link Managers who will contact you repeatedly asking for a link exchange if you happen to acquire a PR in the 6-10 range. Makes you wonder if it's really worth the trouble.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:15 AM   #4
Bondings
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Just a curiosity. Search for "weird stories" on msn beta. It's a search term that I try to optimize my pages for.

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q...ews&FORM=SMCRT

results:

News : Weird News -- MercuryNews.com pr 8
CANOE -- CNEWS - Weird News pr 7
News : Weird News -- Tallahassee.com pr 6
News : Weird News -- Star-Telegram.com pr 6
ABC News 4 Charleston - News link pr 0 (main site pr 5)
News : Weird News -- Herald.com pr 7

And it goes on and on, most of the time
News : Weird News -- newspaper.com with a very high pr. And the main pages have even a higher pr.

I mean that the pr is an indicator of the authority of your website. But a computer site IMHO won't rank for "funny jokes" even if it has a huge pr.
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:18 AM   #5
Larwee

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Bondings, obviously one search term doesn't prove a point but even this still helps show what I was talking about as well as what Czar was talking about.

However, you did a couple of strange things. This was about PageRank. Google uses PageRank. You used MSN search results. In order to connect this with PageRank, you should be using the Google search results.

Next you mentioned the search was for weird stories, however the link is to results for weird news.

Search engine results pages change but this is how they are at the time I just checked them.

I'll begin with weird stories since that is what you mentioned. Also I'll use the Google results since they are the ones who use PageRank and in relation to that I said that you shouldn't be concerned about the PageRank but rather concentrate on the search engine results.

For weird stories there are about 3,000,000 results. I'll list the first 10 in the Google results and their PageRank.

1. dysan.net PR5
2. Weird Wisconsin PR4
3. Weird Wisconsin PR5
4. SFGate PR8
5. News of the weird PR7
6. John Shirley PR5
7. Horrormaster PR3
8. NCBuy PR6
9. theweirdcrap PR5
10. Humor for gentlemen PR2

Notice that number 1 is PR5 and number 2 is PR4. In 4th place is a PR8 and a PR7 is in 5th.

You will also notice that the number 7 spot has a PageRank of 3 while the number 8 has a PageRank of 6.

Also out of about 3,000,000 the number 10 spot for weird stories belongs to a PR2. That's right, tenth in the search engine results with a PageRank of 2.

This type of a thing isn't all that rare. It happens often. Pages with a higher PageRank end up lower in the search results than pages that have a lower PageRank.

I won't list the Google search results for weird news. But with it the number one, number two and number three all have a PageRank of 7. The 5th spot is to a page with a PR8. But the number 7 spot in the search results on Google belongs to a page with a PageRank of 2, while number 8 and number 9 each have a PageRank of 7.

There are about 7,010,000 for weird news in the Google results.

For the first term there was a PR2 placing 10th out of about 3,000,000.

For the second term there was a PR2 placing 7th out of about 7,010,000.

Where you are in the search engine results is much more important that the PageRank.

As an example, being listed on the first page with a PageRank of 2 is much better than being listed on the second page or third page with a higher PageRank. Since being on the first page is going to bring you more search engine visitors.

Last edited by Larwee; 03-18-2005 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 03-18-2005, 07:29 AM   #6
Bondings
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Quote:
Originally posted by larwee
Bondings, obviously one search term doesn't prove a point but even this still helps show what I was talking about as well as what Czar was talking about.

However, you did a couple of strange things. This was about PageRank. Google uses PageRank. You used MSN search results. In order to connect this with PageRank, you should be using the Google search results.

Next you mentioned the search was for weird stories, however the link is to results for weird news.

Search engine results pages change but this is how they are at the time I just checked them.

I'll begin with weird stories since that is what you mentioned. Also I'll use the Google results since they are the ones who use PageRank and in relation to that I said that you shouldn't be concerned about the PageRank but rather concentrate on the search engine results.

For weird stories there are about 3,000,000 results. I'll list the first 10 in the Google results and their PageRank.

1. dysan.net PR5
2. Weird Wisconsin PR4
3. Weird Wisconsin PR5
4. SFGate PR8
5. News of the weird PR7
6. John Shirley PR5
7. Horrormaster PR3
8. NCBuy PR6
9. theweirdcrap PR5
10. Humor for gentlemen PR2

Notice that number 1 is PR5 and number 2 is PR4. In 4th place is a PR8 and a PR7 is in 5th.

You will also notice that the number 7 spot has a PageRank of 3 while the number 8 has a PageRank of 6.

Also out of about 3,000,000 the number 10 spot for weird stories belongs to a PR2. That's right, tenth in the search engine results with a PageRank of 2.

This type of a thing isn't all that rare. It happens often. Pages with a higher PageRank end up lower in the search results than pages that have a lower PageRank.

I won't list the Google search results for weird news. But with it the number one, number two and number three all have a PageRank of 7. The 5th spot is to a page with a PR8. But the number 7 spot in the search results on Google belongs to a page with a PageRank of 2, while number 8 and number 9 each have a PageRank of 7.

There are about 7,010,000 for weird news in the Google results.

For the first term there was a PR2 placing 10th out of about 3,000,000.

For the second term there was a PR2 placing 7th out of about 7,010,000.

Where you are in the search engine results is much more important that the PageRank.

As an example, being listed on the first page with a PageRank of 2 is much better than being listed on the second page or third page with a higher PageRank. Since being on the first page is going to bring you more search engine visitors.
First of all sorry for the mistake. I meant a search for "weird news", weird stories is not a competitive keyword and I have no idea of the search results for that keyphrase. I didn't have much time when I posted that.

I just wanted to show the strange first 50 results you get for "weird news". Most of the results (more than half of the first 50 results) are from the type:
News : Weird News -- newspaper.com .
You will never have this type of results in google. This is just because the SE of MSN is very new IMHO.

I never meant that the PR that we can see is the one and only factor to determin the search results. And is neither more important than the position in the search results.

I suppose google AND MSN have another internal PR that you cannot know. It is probably also related to the kind of website. This is why I mentioned the search term "weird news". IMHO MSN treats this as a news category and therefor all the high-internal-pr-rated news sites are very high in the search results.

So the pr you see is not god, but the internal pr determins for a good part the search engine results. But luckily it is not the only factor.

So you might not notice a change in the search results when your pr changes. But maybe your internal pr was already on that level or it will only have results on google very slowly.

My theory is that the algorythms of google and msn are very similar and both use a sort of internal pr (maybe allmost the same). The other factors are just different. Msn just doesn't have the sandbox or other slow-down effect of google and is less complex as it is very new.

To prove this, do a query for "www" and "com" on both google and msn. I suppose steveb will recognize this search.
www :
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=www&FORM=SMCRT
http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&q=...e+zoeken&meta=

com :
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=com&FORM=SMCRT
http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&q=...G=Zoeken&meta=

The same big companies are all at the top of the search results and only a few small factors determin the results. They are maybe not sorted on pr, but first of all it is the unknown internal pr that is more important and yes pr is not everything.

You cannot change your ranking in the search engines, but you can change the factors that determin that ranking like title, link text, h1 AND PR.

Just my opinion.
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