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Old 03-12-2003, 02:22 PM   #1
Steve_S
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Arrow PageRank - Who cares?

Another post started me thinking and browsing a lot of sites on PageRank so here we go:

1. I'm not a SEO geek and up untill recently I never even cared.

2. Would you link from your page which has a PR6 to another sites page which is PR2 ?

Frankly and respectfully, I could care less about a low PR. What I look for is the quality of the other site and weather the link enhances the user experience for my guests. The site I do this with is in my sig.

I see WAY to much concern over PR when swapping links. My understanding of PR which you should correct if I'm wrong is that it's one of perhaps a 100 different things which Google uses to determine exactly where your site is listed in the search results. Yes, it's used to list sites in Googles tweak to the ODP as they are listed in PR order but most folks don't use this directory on my other site.

I found a great article on PR and the SearchKing/Google law suit at:

http://searchenginewatch.com/serepor...earchking.html


Which leads me to my next issue.

3. Is it ethical, legal, and morally correct to sell links on high PR pages to another site so their PR goes up? Does this action violate Googles rules, procedures, and intent?

Bob King of SearchKing has another site which does this. See:

http://www.pradnetwork.com/

Litigation is pending which is discussed In Dannys article above.
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Old 03-12-2003, 05:45 PM   #2
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personally i only look at the PR as a referer nothing more.
trading links with others that have a lower PR is also good to improve our PR.
the most ppl that cares about PR when making the link exchange aren't very smart... i can have 10k visitors a day and have a PR1 or i can have 10 hits a day and have a PR10 ... it doesn't really mater the PR when making link exchanges, but it would matter if you want a better position on the google search.
i prefer to have more visitors/hits then a good PR...

just my thoughts...
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Old 03-12-2003, 05:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Is it ethical, legal, and morally correct to sell links on high PR pages to another site so their PR goes up? Does this action violate Googles rules, procedures, and intent?
Good question!

I wouldnt say its illegal..and I wouldnt hesitate to sell a link if someone asked (its their loss if they are that obsessed!) - but I wouldnt base a business around it aka searchking / pradnetwork. The google algorithm can change at any time (and it did in their case..) - to be mercy to an outside force as easily changable as that is too much for me..

Plus, I believe that google are trying to factor in the relevance of the linking site to the linked. If they dont really match, the link isnt worth as much. (thats just a guess - its not confirmed in any way)

PR is not the be all and end all, its simply one factor that helps rankings (AT GOOGLE ONLY) - better to work on more high content pages than focus on getting your page rank up I feel..with this content, hopefully you will pick up natural, relevant links anyway...
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Old 03-12-2003, 06:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: PageRank - Who cares?

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve_S
2. Would you link from your page which has a PR6 to another sites page which is PR2 ?
If it is good quality yes, it could be a future PR7+ site, people should remember that too. Google have stoped the -link:www.mysite.com and now only have link:www.mysite.com query. What I learnt from me briefly knowing about it was that DMOZ and Yahoo were considered as the best links, and to get listed their you need a good site. So my advice to everyone is link to pages which are good and benfit your users, make your site good, you will get listed in DMOZ and Yahoo, and then the hits will come rolling in from Google.

Also my success came from deep cross linking with other people. I have barely any links to my front page (the page with the highest PR). But I have many links to internal pages on my sites. Most internal pages have low PR too.

Last edited by kryton; 03-12-2003 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 03-13-2003, 02:53 AM   #5
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I don't really understand the basis of the law suit - google is a private website, they can choose to run whatever links they like wherever they like..... I just don't get it.

If I choose to add or remove a link to searchking.com or anywehere, that is surely my business not theirs!?!! If I right a review or give a rank to that website, how can they sue me?
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Old 03-13-2003, 10:16 AM   #6
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This is a good topic to discuss. Thanks Stevie.

I don't *get* page rankings at all. My website is full of original content...and I rarely add other's people's link to my main page. I have a forum for resources based on our site content (a forum that is moderated. Members submit a website/book/etc to us, we review and we add or not).

Other than that, I'm not a linker. Other people can link to me, I don't link to others...especially on main pages. WHy? Its a traffic thing. I'm at the top of the heap in my category and I get the traffic already. My content is fresh, new, original and being added to regularly. Advertisers pay me to host ad banners or text ads on my site. Why would I add links to lesser websites to get my page ranking higher (assuming this would happen)?

My page ranking according to google? 5/10. WHy is that? I have no clue....I'm not sure I care. Should I?

I'm open to being persuaded this is a good thing for my site...but I'm not going to be willing to add other people's website links without payment unless this page ranking does extraordinary things for my site....
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Old 03-13-2003, 11:22 AM   #7
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There are two issues that I imagine Google would have with what searchking did. First, they diluted the intrinsic value of Google's page ranking system, second, they profited from it.

Ethical? I don't know, I'm no expert on ethics. Would I do it myself? No, because I believe that searchking's actions are yet another technique that devalues the work of all webmasters as a consequence of devaluing the work of Google.

Was Google correct in putting searchking to a PR of zero? Why should Google or any search engine be held to a higher standard than any other web site? I reserve the right to refuse to list sites on my directory site "for any reason whatsoever". Shouldn't Google have that same privilege?

Google sent a very strong warning to us webmasters. We should heed it.
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Old 03-13-2003, 02:27 PM   #8
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Very interesting and thanks for some great thoughts.

I had exspected to get hammered for my own lack of any obsessive concern over PR but so far I think we generally agree. As you have said....forget PR. Build sites with unique content and regular updates. Google will take care of the rest.

Perhaps the larger question is:

1. Some evidence that suggests that a high PR produces Google traffic of a significant nature. This would mean that somehow we would need to figure out exactly weather the visitor came to our site via the Google sorted ODP listing or via a regular search or another way?. I'm not sure what we would say about this but so far I can see perhaps 5% of my site visitors arrive from the Google/ODP directory and my data includes about 10K Google referals.

2. Which leads me to this comment and question: The Google ODP listings don't include the actuall PR number. Why? I mean they have already retrieved this data. Does Google wan't to persuade "us" to use the PR Toolbar so they can also collect our browsing habits via "phoning home" ? I'm not saying yes or no, just asking. Frankly, if the stats this PR toolbar collects are somehow "slanted" because more SEO Geeks and techie Geeks use it, then why bother and exactly how does this help advert sales?

3. Do newbies actually use the PR toolbar? My subject survey says no but I'm curious to see what you folks think.

Edit: Kathy my GEEK Godess among many

A guess on your PR. Google only showes 184 back links (the number of sites which link to you), which IMHO seems very low given the age and quality of your site. Weather this fact equates to a PR5 which for your sites home page is low, is open for discussion and perhaps debate? Weather it's of value to develop link partners to increase the back links is also an open question.

All the matters is a reasonable number of visiotrs from Google via a search. So what's your number? For the site in my sig about 70% of the traffic comes from Google (various countries) I would exspect this percent to decrease as more folks hopefully bookmark the site and arrive directly via a bookmark.

Google showes only 184




Last edited by Steve_S; 03-13-2003 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-13-2003, 02:51 PM   #9
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"2. Would you link from your page which has a PR6 to another sites page which is PR2 ? "

This question has no real relevance to your own page's PR. Linking to other sites doesn't affect your site's PR. The only change in PR by linking to a PR 2 site is that it waters down the distribution of PR you give to other sites when you link to them from your own PR 6 site.

Example: If your webpage (Page A) is PR 6 and you only have one link on your page going to another page (Page B) then Page B is going to receive a lot of benefit from this page. But on the other hand if Page A has many links on it going to Page B, Page C, Page D, etc. then Page B will still benefit from the link but not nearly as much as it did when Page A was only linking to Page B.

PR is only calculated from how many sites link to your site and the PR of those sites that link to you.

One of our PR 5 sites recently got linked to by a PR6 site with our keyword in the link text. Although our site didn't get a boost in PR we got a noticeable boost in our google rankings. So, having keyword rich link text is important (as most of us know) but having those keyword rich links on pages with decent PRs is even better.
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Old 03-13-2003, 03:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by hobbnet
"2. Would you link from your page which has a PR6 to another sites page which is PR2 ? "

This question has no real relevance to your own page's PR. Linking to other sites doesn't affect your site's PR.
Dr Date Really?

What if the other site your linking to is a "bad neighboorhood?

What if the other site is a "link farm"?

Note that part of the SearchKing legal issue is that some of the portal sites had their PR lowered to either a zero or a gray bar becasue for a given period of time, SearchKing was either banned or had a "gray Bar" ?

In summary, you are saying that Google will not lower my own sites PR if in fact I link to a "yuky" Spamola site?

BTW, I don't link to any link farms
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Old 03-13-2003, 03:53 PM   #11
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If you incorporate yourself with link farms you may get grey barred if google catches you and take the time to do it. I am pretty sure penalizing a site takes a manual edit on google's end, googlebot doesn't doesn't penalize automatically.

Regardless, your question is of no relevance really because why would anyone ever link to a "spamola" site? If you just stick to linking to quality sites (regardless of PR) you'll be fine. Even if you link to a couple bad sites it is highly unlikely you will get penalized.

But if you start interlinking dozens of different sites on all of your websites then you will get in trouble. If you practice this, in the beginning you can easily see good returns. One of our best affiliates used to have probably 20 different sites, all of which linked together on their homepages and he sent us 50+ leads a day. But a couple of months ago they caught him and now his once #1 ranked sites are no where to be found in google.

Best,
Dr. Date (LOL Steve )

Last edited by hobbnet; 03-13-2003 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 03-13-2003, 04:35 PM   #12
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Yeah, I don't get that 184 either.

Its listed as both .com and .org (I purchased org from other folks who were using it in a simliar way as me...after me....as I got the name trademarked and they could no longer use it. They charged me a high penny for it....but it did give me some additional links. Try that on the search engine test?

And when I go to the search engine...Google and type in the Name of my site...I get 922 results for the name without spaces

and 828 for my name with spaces.

I just have never asked anyone to put links to my site on theirs. I've worked on search engine placement all these years (including yahoo in the beginning) without those links from others. :lol:

What a mess I am!

But I like that GeeK Goddess thang
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Old 03-13-2003, 04:59 PM   #13
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Dr. Date

Quote:
Originally posted by hobbnet

Regardless, your question is of no relevance really because why would anyone ever link to a "spamola" site?
Because they are NEWBIES and don't/can't benifit from great knowledge like you have and the "collective wisdom" of "us" GV is not really the home for newbies but my goal has always been to try and help them and I can guarantee you that they read this post.

I'm going to make sure of that in a few minutes <evil grin>

Even if I have to grab them by the "nape of the neck" and speak in an elevated volume to make them understand that not only are link farms bad, but any and all instant/fast short cuts and spamola that talks we guarantee you top placement in the top yada yada da

And I mean that in the best way I can express it via the keyboard.

When in doubt, hire one of you SEO geeks to do the thing properly for a sustainable period of time. No spiff required.
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Old 03-13-2003, 05:23 PM   #14
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LOL!

Good point though steve, I'm sure 5 years back when I started I joined some FFA links pages or something. That's where i got all this spam!
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Old 03-14-2003, 10:31 PM   #15
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When researching link partners you can create link pages as a resource for your visitors, as a source of direct traffic from link partners, or use them to increase your inbound linkage and increase your page rank.

I have no problem with linking to related low page rank sites.
If they have excellent content they are important to be associated with. One should be careful not to forget that low page rank sites may be able to lend reputation rank to your site via association even if they do not link to you. Thats valuable too. Also quality low page rank sites tend to rise.

In the beginning high page rank links are important. To compare linking to low page rank sites and high page rank sites for strategic gain is like comparing answers to peoples question sent via email to a good ODP listing.
They are different things with different aims.

Emails to questions affirm your reputation in your industry and thats the same thing that lots of low page rank related links do too. The power of low page rank links is often in the loyalty of the webmaster behind the site to yours rather than his audience persay. If the links give you traffic great, if not you have a link exchange with a related resource that your audience can enjoy and a happy webmaster who thinks highly of your in your industry. The webmaster of the linked site could also serve as a resource for information down the road too. The webmasters that help me the most with things I need to know in industrys I am involved in are often webmasters of low page rank sites.


One should not link to low page rank pages specifically but if quality is found there it should be added. The link is a resource and a means of leveraging and keeping the audience you already have.

An ODP listing is done for the traffic it generates for you. Lage sites have lots of traffic and power. Trying to Trade links with every page rank 1 site in the world because you can will get you not that far.
But trading links with a few page rank 8's will get you very far.
The point is 1000 page rank 1 sites linking to you does not help you that much as far as page rank. But if the sites are appropriate the links to these sites are content. If you can have 1000 page rank 8 sites link to you in exchange for a link that would be a good thing just like few would turn down 1000 ODP or yahoo listings. Such things are about power and traffic. But the web and the link process is about more than traffic sharing with large sites. Links are meant to be resources most of all.

Also page rank and traffic are not really related. The personal page page rank one two to three sites also tend to link prominently and if they have a highly targeted audience a high portion of their audience could visit every link they put up.
This is often not the case for general interest sites with large page ranks.
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