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Old 09-27-2002, 10:40 AM   #1
besimple
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Default Isn't that strange??

Good one !!!
I think Mr.Clifford has tapped into the pipeline which is full of dirty politics, illegal payoffs, bribes etc. This information will be quite a shock to a common American who is unaware of what goes on at the upper level in this country. American news media is a big contributor for general public ignorance about world affairs and they do their best to keep general people occupied with sports, fashion, weather, wallstreet and local news. Before Spetember 11 most Americans didn't even know where Afghanistan is on the world map but now things are gradually changing and we may see some improvement in American awareness of world affairs and may be some true democracy if we are lucky.

By Joseph Clifford

JAMES TOWN, Rhode Island - The Russians got into their Vietnam right after we got out of ours? Isn't that strange?

We supported Bin Laden and the Taleban for years, and viewed them as freedom fighters against the Russians? Isn't that strange?

As late as 1998 the US was paying the salary of every single Taleban official in Afghanistan? Isn't that strange?

There is more oil and gas in the Caspian Sea area than in Saudi
Arabia, but you need a pipeline through Afghanistan to get the oil out. Isn't that strange?

UNOCAL, a giant American Oil conglomerate, wanted to build a1-000-mile long pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to the Arabian Sea. Isn't that strange?

UNOCAL spent $10 billion on geological surveys for pipeline
construction, and very nicely courted the Taleban for their support in allowing the construction to begin. Isn't that strange?

All of the leading Taleban officials were in Texas negotiating with
UNOCAL in 1998. Isn't that strange?

1998-1999 - The Taleban changed its mind and threw UNOCAL out of the country and awarded the pipeline project to a company from Argentina. Isn't that strange?

John Maresca, vice president of UNOCAL, testified before Congress and said no pipeline until the Taleban was gone and a more friendly government was established. Isn't that strange?

1999-2000 - The Taleban became the most evil people in the world. Isn't that strange?

Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior
American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. Isn't that strange?

Sept. 11, 2001 - WTC disaster.

Bush goes to war against Afghanistan even though none of the hijackers came from Afghanistan. Isn't that strange?

Bush blamed Bin Laden but has never offered any proof saying it's a "secret." Isn't that strange?

Taleban offered to negotiate to turn over Bin Laden if we showed them some proof. We refused; we bombed. Isn't that strange?

Bush said: "This is not about nation building. It's about getting the terrorists." Isn't that strange?

We have a new government in Afghanistan. Isn't that strange?

The leader of that government formerly worked for UNOCAL. Isn't that strange?

Bush appoints a special envoy to represent the US to deal with that new government, who formerly was the "chief consultant to UNOCAL." Isn't that strange?

The Bush family acquired their wealth through oil? Isn't that strange?

Bush's secretary of interior was the president of an oil company
before going to Washington. Isn't that strange?

George Bush Sr. now works with the "Carlysle Group" specializing in huge oil investments around the world. Isn't that strange?

Condoleezza Rice worked for Chevron before going to Washington. Isn't that strange?

Chevron named one of its newest "supertankers" after Condoleezza. Isn't that strange?

Dick Cheney worked for the giant oil conglomerate Haliburton before becoming vice president. Isn't that strange?

Haliburton gave Cheney $34 million as a farewell gift when he left the company. Isn't that strange?

Haliburton is in the pipeline construction business. Isn't that
strange?

There is $6 trillion worth of oil in the Caspian Sea area. Isn't that
strange?

The US government quietly announced on Jan 31, 2002 that we will support the construction of the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline. Isn't that strange?

President Musharraf (Pakistan), and interim leader Karzai,
(Afghanistan -UNOCAL) announce agreement to build proposed gas pipeline from Central Asia to Pakistan via Afghanistan. (Irish Times (02/10/02) Isn't that strange?

It's the Oil, Stupid!

(Mr. Joseph Clifford also contributed this article to Media Monitors
Network (MMN)
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Old 09-27-2002, 10:48 AM   #2
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As far as I'm concerned, the strangest thing of all is that (to my knowledge) no government of a 'developed nation' is making a concerted effort to discover and develop economically viable, alternative, renewable energy sources.
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Old 09-27-2002, 11:14 AM   #3
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I know that we have discovered a new source called Tidle farms, basically energy is produced with the aid of the waves of the sea waves/tides. So having water all around is great bcoz according to the creators of this new power source in a few years, this type of electricity will be powering 10% of the UK's households

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Old 09-27-2002, 12:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea
As far as I'm concerned, the strangest thing of all is that (to my knowledge) no government of a 'developed nation' is making a concerted effort to discover and develop economically viable, alternative, renewable energy sources.
Most are. Yours and mine (the US and Australia) are exceptions - the two most significant developed nations that have yet to ratify their part in the Kyoto Protocol. Doing so would force our governments to subsidise both research and development and eventual deployment of alternative energy sources, or systems that build upon the efficiency and cleanliness of traditional industrial processes.

I know Bill Clinton is a massive supporter of solar energy, and while he no longer plays an active role in government, his lasting influence may encourage some commercial exploration into the improvement of solar technologies and the transition of power grids and/or individual self-serve power systems to solar.

In any case, regardless of government support, there are fortunately a wealth of innovative startups in the space. While I'm not familiar with foreign markets, I invest in a few renewable energy players here (who operate a variety of wind, solar and hydro plants as well as research practices), and they've been performing very well despite our local government's resistance to Kyoto.

Energy has been a corrupt industry for decades, but fossil fuels can't last forever, nor will our planet at large unless we adopt more responsible energy practices, so the future for renewable players looks bright.
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Old 09-27-2002, 01:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Czar
.

I know Bill Clinton is a massive supporter of solar energy, and while he no longer plays an active role in government, his lasting influence may encourage some commercial exploration into the improvement of solar technologies and the transition of power grids and/or individual self-serve power systems to solar.
<off_topic>

Bill Clinton's lasting influence has been in the area of how DC offices handle their interns and their tasks within the beltway.

Reform happened once he left office.

Other than this kind of lasting influence, I don't believe much will be lasting for us to enjoy within another generation....

</off_topic>
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Old 09-28-2002, 08:25 AM   #6
OC
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Default Re: Isn't that strange??

Quote:
Originally posted by besimple
Bush goes to war against Afghanistan
This is where Joseph Clifford's editorial is predominantly flawed.



Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea
As far as I'm concerned, the strangest thing of all is that (to my knowledge) no government of a 'developed nation' is making a concerted effort to discover and develop economically viable, alternative, renewable energy sources.
Exactly.

Imagine driving a car that doesn't use gasoline. Instead of pollution, it only emits pure water vapor. Amazing cars like this are only six or seven years away, no?


I've been following hydrogen powered / fuel cell vehicles for almost a year now. It's fascinating that we're so close. Seems most people are more concerned about their guzzling SUVs


Read the whole thing. It's worth it:
http://www.business2.com/articles/ma...,40384,FF.html (four pages)

and

http://www.business2.com/articles/ma...F.html?ref=rhs

  • By next year, there will be buses in 20 cities that run on hydrogen.
  • Car makers are spending hundreds of millions of dollars (collectively in the billions) to beat each other to the punch to sell hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles in mass production.
  • DaimlerChrysler and others hope to sell the first fuel-cell cars in California in 2004.
  • Mass production of fuel cell vehicles by most of the major car manufacturers is scheduled for 2008. Exciting stuff
  • In 40 years, Iceland will be almost completely independent from oil. Right now it is one of the world's largest per-head producers of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.
    http://www.evworld.com/databases/sho...=news300502-01
    http://www.worldpress.org/europe/0123iceland.htm
    http://www.freshangles.com/realtime/...ticles/34.html

Last edited by OC; 09-28-2002 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 09-28-2002, 09:23 PM   #7
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by besimple
I know that we have discovered a new source called Tidle farms, basically energy is produced with the aid of the waves of the sea waves/tides. So having water all around is great bcoz according to the creators of this new power source in a few years, this type of electricity will be powering 10% of the UK's households
There have been experiments with Tidal energy going on for a long time. I remember talking about the possibilities when I was in High School about 20 years ago but I haven't seen anything come of it (or solar power either for that matter).

By the way, they have been generating power from the tides in France for the last 40 years:
http://www.tidalelectric.com/technology/history.htm

- Simon
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Old 09-28-2002, 10:27 PM   #8
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Well wind farms could produce a lot of electricity in some places. A lot of strife has been created over the debate of placing a wind farm 5 miles offshore in Massachusetts... it would look ugly and hurt real estate prices.

Hydrogen is the closest realistic thing we have.
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Old 09-28-2002, 11:04 PM   #9
OC
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Default Re: Isn't that strange??

I'm trying to resist the urge to go through every one of Mr. Cliffords points with a point of my own. Jan! Rhea! Restrain me!!!




Quote:
Originally posted by besimple
Good one !!!
I think Mr.Clifford has tapped into the pipeline which is full of dirty politics, illegal payoffs, bribes etc.
I think most of Mr. Cliffords "facts" are flawed. I think he's a master of spin. Isn't that strange?


Quote:
This information will be quite a shock to a common American who is unaware of what goes on at the upper level in this country.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Khayam, but I think you're British and you live in England.



Quote:
American news media is a big contributor for general public ignorance about world affairs and they do their best to keep general people occupied with sports, fashion, weather, wallstreet and local news.
Regarding my last point... from what personal experience do you speak of?



Quote:
Before Spetember 11 most Americans didn't even know where Afghanistan is on the world map but now things are gradually changing and we may see some improvement in American awareness of world affairs and may be some true democracy if we are lucky.
No one I've talked to has ever seen September 11 as a something other people may "see some improvement" or "some true democracy" from. It's strange you would.






--------
Quote:
-Clifford's editorial cut-
So he thinks the war against the Taliban was for oil and we were just using September 11 as an excuse... and we're not concerned for our security and safety. I issue a rolleyes for this one.



Quote:
1999-2000 - The Taleban became the most evil people in the world. Isn't that strange?
They were harboring Bin Laden. He has a rap sheet: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/peop.../timeline.html

Quote:
Bush goes to war against Afghanistan even though none of the hijackers came from Afghanistan. Isn't that strange?
No. And no one went to war against Afghanistan.


Quote:
Bush blamed Bin Laden but has never offered any proof saying it's a "secret." Isn't that strange?
Yeah... video tapes of Bin Laden weren't enough. I guess they weren't in the eyes of people who decided to spin the tapes. "Let's just say they've all been translated incorrectly!"


Quote:
Bush said: "This is not about nation building. It's about getting the terrorists." Isn't that strange?

We have a new government in Afghanistan. Isn't that strange?
It did turn into a nation building project. Can't argue that.


By the way, Clinton was in office during much of Mr. Clifford's timeline. A lot of this had nothing to do with our current administration. Yet it's all pieced together by the writer like a conspiracy. Isn't that strange?


Edit: I spelled "pieced" incorrectly. That is strange.

Last edited by OC; 09-28-2002 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 09-28-2002, 11:16 PM   #10
Jan

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Default Re: Re: Isn't that strange??

Quote:
Originally posted by OC
I'm trying to resist the urge to go through every one of Mr. Cliffords points with a point of my own. Jan! Rhea! Restrain me!!!
Go for it Who is Mr Clifford?
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Old 09-28-2002, 11:21 PM   #11
OC
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Default Re: Re: Re: Isn't that strange??

Quote:
Originally posted by Jan

Go for it Who is Mr Clifford?
Psst... Joseph Clifford wrote that editorial.

I just said a few points and I will limit myself to one or two replies.

I don't feel like researching pointlessly. I learned my lesson last time. No one's opinion changes and I will eventually realize I wasted my time being overly condescending and using a lot of rolleyes.
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Old 09-28-2002, 11:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Isn't that strange??

Quote:
Originally posted by OC
Psst... Joseph Clifford wrote that editorial.
Oh really? But who is he?, anyone important?
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Old 09-28-2002, 11:53 PM   #13
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No one important. Some amateur.

Last edited by OC; 09-28-2002 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 09-29-2002, 04:26 AM   #14
besimple
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OC I copy pasted that article into this forum....so the guy who sent it to me must be from the states.

Honestly all that stuff is basically ummmmmm not much of an answer to mr. Clifford's points. I don't have the time...but If I did I would sit down and elaborate on each point.

My thinking is that you have been turned into one of those people that is not ready or willing to even look at the other side or real side of the matter. You'd rather ridicule my points just to please yourself to say that your right.

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Old 09-29-2002, 05:24 PM   #15
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Mr. Iftikhar,

Please note that I already stated I woulddn't research and dispel each of Mr. Clifford's points because it's pointless... your opinions aren't going to change and neither are mine. At least you could clarify your opinions for us...


So you're saying you just copy+pasted that pre-article part from a friend's email. Is it safe to assume you obviously agree with his misguided opinions because otherwise you wouldn't have posted them?



Quote:
You'd rather ridicule my points just to please yourself to say that your right
Don't take any thing personally. I didn't ridicule your points. You already said they were some guy's and Mr. Clifford's.


Quote:
My thinking is that you have been turned into one of those people that is not ready or willing to even look at the other side or real side of the matter.
My thinking is you have a total disregard for facts.

By the way, you perfectly described the the owner of "Media Monitors" (the site that "published" that editorial). He's a man named Muhammad Ali Khan.


Muhammad Ali Khan seems to like writing articles... in which he says Adolph Hitler is Ariel Sharon's precedent and mentor. Oh, and Bush "is inherently suffering from the complex of 'superiority' and 'power' like most of the Westerners on this earth." Of course, Bush is also leading a "crusade to 'purify' this earth from Islam."




Muhammad Ali Khan then calls Israel a "a Zionist terrorist regime."

This same guy:
-blames the WSJ for Daniel Pearl's death for having the audacity to send a Jewish reporter to Pakistan

-distributed a news release about September 11 titled, "The Jews Did It!"


Here's a copy:

Quote:
* NEWS EMBARGO AFTER ISRAELI LINK LEAK *
Stern-Intel (Canada). A US military intelligence source revealed details of an internal intelligence memo that points to the Israeli Mossad intelligence service having links to the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. The intelligence source, who requested his name be withheld, confirmed the internal US intelligence memo circulated four weeks ago described information that pointed to the threat of a covert Israeli operation on US soil to turn mass public opinion against Palestinian Arabs via an apparent terrorist attack on US interests that would give Israel the green light to implement a large scale military onslaught against the Palestinian Arab population.

The 11 September attack has been described by experts as being too sophisticated for a lone terrorist group to execute. "This attack required a high level of military precision and the resources of an advanced intelligence agency. In addition, the attackers would have needed to be extremely familiar with both air force one flight operations, civil airline flight paths and aerial assault tactics on sensitive US cities like Washington, Stated David Stern an expert on Israeli intelligence operations. The attacks targeted the Pentagon, World Trade Center towers, with the white house and air force also being targets according to the FBI.

"The attacks have certainly turned US public opinion firmly back in Israel's favor after 11 months of Palestinian uprising, heavy criticism of Israel over war crimes allegations and racism by a UN conference in Durban. The attacks serve no Arab group or nationís interests but their timing came in the midst of international condemnation of Israel for its policy of death squad assassination of Palestinian political and police figures," added Stern.

If verified, the news of Israelís involvement in the US attack will come as no surprise to intelligence experts. The state of Israel has a long history of covert operations against Western targets with attacks on the King David Hotel, USS Liberty, murder of a Scandinavian UN envoy as well as espionage against the US during the Jonathan Pollard case.

On Wednesday the US defense department issued a warning to its officials to halt the leak of information on the investigation which it says is happening on a daily basis since the attacks occurred."

www.mediamonitors.net



Birds of a feather flock together. Tell that to the friend who emailed you.
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