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Old 11-07-1999, 12:40 AM   #1
Questy
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Friday, 11/05/99, mark that date. If this isn't business and technology new, nothing is. The judge in the Microsoft antitrust trial ruled that the software giant was a monopoly.

I agree. I think that there is substantial evidence that Microsoft tried every strong arm tactic in the book. Is that what free enterprize is all about? I hope not!

What's your thoughts?

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Old 11-07-1999, 01:32 AM   #2
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agreed, microsoft seems a little overbearing and definitely not a promoter of free enterprise or consumer choice. http://www.very-cool-stuff.com/ubb/wink.gif

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Old 11-08-1999, 03:49 PM   #3
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As a die-hard Apple user, I find this news very welcoming. Not only because I want Apple to grow, but because I really do believe Microsoft has grown too much. It seems they gobble up every last competitor. If it wasn't for this lawsuit, we'd all be forced to wear Microsoft shoes, watch movies produced by Microsoft, and eat Microsoft brand cereals.

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Old 11-09-1999, 06:53 PM   #4
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This is one thing that I definitely cannot agree with Questy . What is actually happening to Microsoft is like saying that it is wrong to be successful and it is wrong to be big . This clearly goes against all the virtues put forward by the people promoting free trade and capitalism themselves ---> America .

Microsoft did not do anything wrong . There is nothing wrong if Microsoft wanted to put their browsers in their operating systems . If people didn't like it , they wouldn't have used it . Just look at Wordpad . Its of inferior quality and provided for free but hardly anybody ever uses it . Technically in this aspect , I feel that Netscape actually was scared that Microsoft had such a good product that people would abandon it . They somehow managed to convince the DOJ that is was a monopolistic practice .

What you must understand is that it is not that microsoft can just buy up competition . It is just that Microsoft want to buy up the competition and the other party agrees to it .

Technically if I was Bill Gates , I would just shift my base to another country ..... say Malaysia's Multimedia Super Corridor (MSC) where the government not only provides tax incentives and other growth initiatives but also allows the successful to continue to succeed and progress . If this is done then the laws can only apply on the Microsoft center in the US.

This is definately a step backwards towards progress of the world of computers.

Hail Microsoft and Down with the DOJ !

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Old 11-09-1999, 07:22 PM   #5
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People seem to either think Microsoft is an evil monster (netscape, linux-heads, apple-fans) or Microsoft is great (newbie windows users usually)

I visited them in Redmond about 2 yrs ago, and they are just as dumb and clever as most every other large corporation.

Personally I don't think giving IE away is harmful to consumers, and is actually beneficial as it allows lots of non-MS windows programs to incorporate IE technology (netscape does not have nearly enough Windows APIs to fully integrate into a Windows app you write) - and whose fault is that? it isn't Gate's fault that Netscape doesn't have sufficient APIs.

My problem with Microsoft is their expansion into other business areas, and from what i've read their sharp sales practises (never personally experienced anything like that myself) with OEMs. The reason for this being a "problem" is the existing position should act as a restraint. Nobody would complain if Netscape or Sun got into online banking as they would not be using "leverage" as they don't have much from their pre-existing positions.

Personally I think the whole law-suit thing is 99% a waste of time. Microsoft is not an unstoppable steam-roller unless you choose to be flattened. In any case, the more defocused they become by expanding into new areas - the bigger the fall they are setting themselves up for.

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Old 11-10-1999, 10:20 AM   #6
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Heartz old buddy, glad to see this post has you thinking.

RE:What is actually happening to Microsoft is like saying that it is wrong to be successful and it is wrong to be big.

Their basic argument that they lost on was that the browser is an integral part of the the operation system. I don't want to get into a technical debate, but, a browser is an application. I think that when a developer of an operating system makes applications difficult, if not almost impossible, to be separated from the operating system, they are not doing what's in the best interest of an open standard. When the developer of that operating system has 95% of the desktop operating system, I think it's obvious they are using their power and influence in an unfriendly way.

RE:Microsoft did not do anything wrong.

Did you follow the trial at all? There were blantant mistakes made by their lawyers that made them look stupid. It's not for me to decide what's right and wrong, that's why there's all those lawyers are making the big bucks.

I don't see this as anything evil or wrong on Microsoft's part or the DOJ. The DOJ has an obligation to US citizens to keep things "honest." Microsoft has an obligation to it's share holders to make a profit. It's a delicate line that all large corporations must deal with. It's all part of the business of business.


WC,
RE: Personally I think the whole law-suit thing is 99% a waste of time.

While I seriously doubt that any real penalties will come out of this, I don't think it's a waste of time. IBM went through similar troubles several years ago, and while the courts never issued a verdict against IBM, it did have an effect on IBM's way of doing business. Even if this action causes Microsoft to be more cautious, this will give their competitors a chance to gain some ground, which I believe is cause enough to make the whole thing worthwhile.


(And if Microsoft made shoes, would the laces be compatable with Linux or Novell Shoes??, Nah)




[This message has been edited by Questy (edited 11-10-1999).]
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Old 11-10-1999, 11:11 AM   #7
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"when a developer ..makes applications difficult..to be separated ..they are not doing what's in the best interest of an open standard."

This is true but it is also important to note that when a developer makes applications easy to be separated they are also making them harder to use. I adore IE's integration into windows, and I think it was a vital step of bringing the internet to where it is now. I consider myself quite competent but I still enjoy the ease of being able to explore my hard drive then in the same window be able to search the internet by just typing the http address into where the hard drive path usually is.

"There were blantant mistakes made by their lawyers that made them look stupid."

That is the same as saying that if a lawyer sneezes while in the middle of what he is saying then his whole speech is worthless and he is a liar. You should filter out the mistakes and look at the things which you know are facts instead of calling everything a lie because a few mistakes were made.

"(And if Microsoft made shoes, would the laces be compatable with Linux or Novell Shoes??, Nah)"

And would linux and novell's laces be compatible with windows? I dont think so either!

Linux was mentioned in this thread. I have just installed Linux on saturday and it was 1 big pain in the ****. The one thing I did notice though was thatthe only browser Linux comes with is netscape. This would lead new linux users into thinking that NS is the only net browser they can use under linux (not sure if it is or not). I dont see anyone accusing netscape of monopolistic practises though, do you? it is the same principal. A Net browser which comes with the operating system.

Netscape are just as bad as IE, why cant they just come to a simple agreement. Ie for windows and Netscape for linux. That is how it is now but netscape still arent happy.

Another marvellous thing about Windows, which I discovered on Saturday, is that it reduces the cost of the puter. I can go out and buy a v90 winmodem for 18pounds and windows will run it fine, microsoft were actually clever enough to put some of the hardware into software which makes the devices a lot cheaper. To get my linux to work on the net I have to go out and buy a 100pounds external modem which has everthing in hardware.

Dave.




[This message has been edited by davidg1234 (edited 11-10-1999).]
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Old 11-10-1999, 06:07 PM   #8
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RE:"(And if Microsoft made shoes, would the laces be compatable with Linux or Novell
Shoes??, Nah)"
And would linux and novell's laces be compatible with windows? I dont think so
either!


Sheesh, that was a joke. I didn't want to get into the technical aspects, but since you made that comment I would ask you your technical expertise with Network operating systems.

Novell's NDS Support for NT, Active Directory and Windows 2000.

NDS for NT integrates your Windows NT Servers with your NetWare servers.

Novell expects to make NDS for Linux available by the end of calendar year 1999.

Novell as a Network operating system has made major attempts to integrate their network operating system with other network operating system.

Novell Sun Microsystems have a strategic partnership to deliver platform-independent
solutions for the Internet and corporate intranets.

Needless to say that Novell and Netscape partner on some Web Server products.

I jokingly call Netscape, Novell, Corel, Sun(unix), The Anti-microsoft alliance. They are working to partner to form a competitive force to combat Microsoft's power and arrogance.

I know next to nothing about the Apple Mac world. I've always respected them for the way they defended their operating system in the shadows of the Microsoft giant.

I wish Linux well. Linux may not be ready for prime time, yet. But I think, much like the apple mac world, it will gather a solid following. It is by far the easiest solution I've seen to set up a webserver. I had apache web server running off of a linux cd in 30 minutes. Operating system and application, up and running in about half an hour.

My opinions about MicroSoft go back years, and continue on a daily basis.

When I have issues with running Windows on a Novell network, I find out more about Windows on Novell's web site than I do Microsoft's.

As someone who has 1800 Windows workstations running on a Novell Network Operating System I have my reasons for feeling the way I do.

All is fair in war and operating systems I guess http://www.very-cool-stuff.com/ubb/frown.gif

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Old 11-13-1999, 10:24 AM   #9
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Microsoft need to sit down and redesign their operating systems and applications to be more efficient, why are the minimum requirements for windows so high? My FreeBSD system runs just fine on a 486Dx/50, even though it does more work in a day than all my win95/98/nt machines do in a week.

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Old 11-14-1999, 12:40 AM   #10
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Maybe true, but you should compare like-with-like

The clock applet on my sun is 1.2Mb file! And that's not including the runtime space, Operating System, X-Window and the Window Manager. True this is not a fair comparison either, but it seems almost *everybody* has a mentality where they consider memory and CPU resources expendable.

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Old 11-14-1999, 08:35 PM   #11
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WildComputer,

From what I've experienced, and from conversations with many "computer geeks" it is my humble opinion that Microsofts "code" generally speaking is inefficient, curious to your thoughts?

On a similar note, Java has been the great underachiever. Any thoughts on this matter?
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Old 11-14-1999, 09:14 PM   #12
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Questy ,

Their basic argument that they lost on was that the browser is an integral part of the the operation system. I don't want to get into a technical debate, but, a browser is an application

Then what happened to the right to innovate? It is just like saying that if Heartz has a monopoly of telephones in the US because people like using it and it is easy to configure ( just like Windows ) , he cannot integrate an answering machine and a coffee machine to it because they are two separate different applications and might make all answering machines and coffee machine producers to go out of business .

When the developer of that operating system has 95% of the desktop operating system, I think it's obvious they are using their power and influence in an unfriendly way.

No not necessaryly . I could also mean that they are finding ways and means to keep their operating systems up to date and to the latest trend . Microsoft felt that the Internet was going to be the future , so they linked the future to their OS . Nothing wrong with that . Hey , if netscape wanted to build their own OS and call it DOORS and have Netscape built into it go ahead . Nobody is stopping them .

As David mentioned , installing alternative operating systems , such as linux in his case , has always been a pain . I've tried a installing a few of these so called 'alternative' OS and have usually given up during the installation process or because I had to buy new hardware to accomodate it, not installed it at all . Right now , can you show me any other operating system that can stand side by side with Windows and say that's better then the Bill Gates Product .

People,

Ever notice that the Capitalist capital of the world is going against their own preaching ? In a capitalist economy , survival of the fittest is but the basic essence of economics . What the DOJ has done is definitely against Free Trade and the globalization process in General . Yes , Microsoft might have said to a few OEMs that if you don't do this and this and this ... I won't give you the right to install my operating system in your computers . But , isn't it also a fact that in a capitalist economy , you have the right to decide who you want to sell your products to ? Which means that if a company does not follow microsoft standards , they have no right to 'force' Microsoft to sell it to them .

Think about it people . I really feel strong about message the DOJ is passing .

Quote:

It's like saying that it's wrong to be big and successful . It's also like saying that it's wrong to innovate and be successful . The topic should be Globalization and Free Trade 0 , Jelousy and Ignorance 1 . http://209.238.38.146/ubb/smile.gif

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Old 11-15-1999, 03:05 AM   #13
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IMHO most RISC based UNIXes are in a class of their own for inefficiency http://www.very-cool-stuff.com/ubb/smile.gif Although Windows is rapidly catching up.

My own experience is primarily from GUI applications, and large but not necessarily colossal server apps (i.e. not the kind of thing where you'd have 128 CPUs working on the server). For graphics-intensive GUI apps, many times, I have seen PC apps out perform the X considerably, even when X is running on a workstation which costs many times as much, and runs many times faster.

The original versions of Windows were written for machines with 512K and twin floppies, and there is still a little of that stuff around that the core of the GUI is still small. The downside for this is the API is gradually turning into a mess.

I have no experience of PC-based versions of UNIX, but for RISC based versions there is still a "flakiness" I don't like, and what I really don't like: is it's take as a given.

Microsoft's (and the PC's in general) secret has been backwards compatibility. It is still possible to run a 25 yr old CPM app on a Pentium III with NT 4! It is still possible to plug a c.1981 PC card into most modern PCs. While not wanting to go to this extreme, I have a problem with any approach that requires me to throw away the vast majority of what I have already done, coded, got or bought. This is basically what the "extreme" wing of Java and UNIX heads have pushed. In the case of some UNIX versions, they are not even compatible with old versions of the operating system - you want to upgrade your OS - you need a whole new set of apps!

Finally on a technical note, I would add that Windows is definitely easier (and has more choice) of programming tools than other platforms.

There is room for lots of opinions, and lots of products, and I use Java and UNIX myself too. So I accept my opinions, are just that - opinions - and others may differ and want to follow UNIX or Java or whatever to the ends of the earth.

My problem with the court ruling is that

(a) it's *not* protecting me as a consumer of computer products [I have never noticed that I'm suffering from Microsoft's monopoly]

(b) it's *not* protecting me as a developer of software [it's just one set of big boys (Corel, NS, Sun) vs. another (Microsoft)]. Most small developers just want a stable mass-market platform with good development tools: MS have provided that.
AND
(c) I don't like the idea of government regulating what should be in software. Government says operating systems and browsers are different packages. That is their opinion. That is clearly yours Questy. But it's not necessarily everyone's. In my opinion the problem is that operating systems do _not_ do enough. I want more internet connectivity, plus voice, sight, higher level GUIs, and much more built-in as standard into the operating system.

Finally yes, MS is a monopoly. It is my understanding that monopolies are legal - it is actions to protect or extend the monopoly.

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Old 11-15-1999, 03:28 AM   #14
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RE:Right now , can you show me any other operating system that can stand side by side with Windows and say that's better then the Bill Gates Product.

Are you talking Desk top, or network? Yes, I would make the case that Many Network Operating Systems, Unix, Linix, Novell, have advantages over Windows NT, (Soon to be Windows 2000). I think this is where a lot of this is getting lost in the translation. Microsoft right now has the easiest to use Desk Top or Work Station Operating System. They are using that dominance to get people to buy into their applications as well as their Network Operating Systems. Nothing burns me more than when folks jump on the NT bandwagon, without thinking, or shopping.

Network Operating Systems is my profession, so I have a strong opinion on this. There is no "right answer" when it comes to network operating systems. Novell teaches the class on how to integrate NT on a Novell network. Ironically, I've never seen a Microsoft class teaching how to Windows 95, or NT, with some one else's operating system.

installing alternative operating systems, such as linux in his case , has always been a pain

On this issue also, there is some issues with the difference between desktop operating system, and Network Operating System. Linux is an attempt to take the concepts of a Network Operating System, (Unix), and bring it to the desktop. Here again, if you've worked with Network Operating Systems, you'll note the tremendous progress made with Linux in this arena.

Back around the early 1990's, somewhere in that time frame, I was testing and using a desktop operating system called GeoWorks. It was pretty cool. Argueably the last threat Windows had on the desktop OS side since Linux came to market. Then again the Apple users of the world would have something to say also.

I guess I'm trying to put the Capitalism issues aside, and argue from a technical side for now.

I don't expect all the Microsoft flag wavers to jump on another OS band wagon, just stop and think. Think about the possibilities, really think about true inovation and open standards, before you simply trust the richest man in the world.

Thanks guys, for a great debate.

"Questy"

[This message has been edited by Questy (edited 11-15-1999).]
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Old 11-15-1999, 03:46 AM   #15
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RE: I don't like the idea of government regulating what should be in software. Government says operating systems and browsers are different packages. That is their opinion. That is clearly yours Questy.


My true feeling is that I'd much rather have this resolved on the battle fields of free enterprise, than the court rooms.

RE: I have a problem with any approach that requires me to throw away the vast majority of what I have already done,

While the final version of Windows 2000 that replaces NT is not yet out, from the talk I've heard it drastically changes the entire way of thinking from NT.

RE:Finally yes, MS is a monopoly. It is my understanding that monopolies are legal - it is actions to protect or extend the monopoly.

I am trying very hard to stay clear of the "politics" of this issue. For those of you outside "the states," one could argue that this debate wouldn't even be taking place if there were a different president in office. Please, let's reserve those arguments for a political forum somewhere else.

As I say in my previous post, my only TRUE mission in this is to get you to really think about the possibilities, really think about true inovation and open standards, before you simply trust the richest man in the world.

Once again, thanks for a great debate...
FWIW http://www.very-cool-stuff.com/ubb/wink.gif
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