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Old 06-25-2002, 06:40 PM   #16
Rhea
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Hey zero6, and welcome to the Village. You might want to swing by Geek Yak and introduce yourself, that way lots of people can welcome you.

You wrote:
Quote:
PR is not necessarily determined by number and value of inbound links alone, it is determined also by site content, quality outbound links, internal link structure, overall theme and focus, and site scale.
I'd really be interested to hear these points elaborated on, particularly the bit about 'quality outbound links'. Do you know how Google determines that quality? Is it merely a matter of the PR of the outbound link, or would a .edu or .org link be assessed at a higher value than a .net or .com link, for instance?

TIA!
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:10 AM   #17
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Well, I don't agree with this statement:

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PR is not necessarily determined by number and value of inbound links alone, it is determined also by site content, quality outbound links, internal link structure, overall theme and focus, and site scale.
In my opinion PR is determined by number and value of inbound links alone. If I read Googles description of PageRank I can't draw any other conclusion: http://www.google.com/technology/index.html .

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying PR is the only factor determining a sites ranking. There are other important factors like the ones zero 6 mentioned. In fact: I would agree with the quote above if the word "PR" would have been replaced with "ranking".

About the quality outbound links: I don't know if they help ranking now, but if not, I can imagine they will in the future. I think outbound links (and link text) can be used to find sites that share a certain theme. Google could give sites that share a theme a higher ranking for search terms that are related to that theme.
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Old 06-26-2002, 07:52 AM   #18
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Rhea,

Thanks for the welcome. Yep. I'll check in to Geek Yap when I have a mo.

Of course GG would never release details of their algorythm, but through experience, and trial and error, much can be gleened.

Googles algo is I think based on what the Web was originally about when it was first conceived. Networks and links between documents. Google tries to rank sites/documents on how useful it is. So first it needs to determine a theme (establishing a focused theme is important, avoid diluting your theme by linking to/being linked to, irrelevant sites.), providing good quality links to sites with good PR, that share your sites theme. It doesnt matter about domain extension as long as you are linking to sites that do well in your theme community.

I'm not saying that outbound links are a big factor in PR but to be seen as a member of that theme community is a plus. Of course links back to you from those sites are a major factor. Be wary of deep linking, there are rumours of this having a negative effect. Good links out of your root index page work best. Not too many, maybe half a dozen.


Xander,

I see PR as being completely woven with ranking. I agree with you that 'ranking' would have been more accurate. Although it's is very difficult to split PR from ranking.

In my experience sites with good outbound links have done better than sites with none.

Another important factor to build in is good internal link structure. Having good links to all the pages of your site using keyword text links will also be valuable in improving PR.

Google will (at least initially) include all internal links when determining PR. A big, large scale site is going to be a very effective one. Just search GG for 'books' and see what I mean. The top listed sites are huge, some over 50,000 pages.

z6
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Old 06-26-2002, 09:37 AM   #19
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I can pretty much confirm that linking to good pages will get you a higher page rank. From the testing I've done, I've basically come to that conclusion. I've noticed distinct differences between pages with more good links than pages without as many. Like, I can have a page rank of 6 on 1 page with a bunch of good links related to the information on the page, and when I don't have as many links on a page with good relevant links they get lower page ranks of anywhere between 1 - 5.

I don't think it does much good to link to higher page ranked sites if the information isn't related to information on your site.

Edit: It's really a double edged sword if you have a site that sells a product or service. Because linking to a related site most likely would mean linking to a competitor. Something you may not want to do.

Last edited by clay; 06-26-2002 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea
I'd really be interested to hear these points elaborated on, particularly the bit about 'quality outbound links'. Do you know how Google determines that quality? Is it merely a matter of the PR of the outbound link, or would a .edu or .org link be assessed at a higher value than a .net or .com link, for instance?

TIA!
Rhea,
IMO when searching for links it is not wise to go on PR alone
The number of links in the page is important, too many and the PR will be diluted anyway.

I think we are in danger of ignoring visitor benefits for the sake of one search engine, Think about whether your visitors will benefit from the link first, if they will then IMO dont worry about PR.
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:28 AM   #21
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SurfChick,

Who said links have to be visible to the user... there are ways and means .... Sometimes you gotta be a little ruthless..

Problem is this one SE can deliver 10 times the quantity of traffic the other SE's do put together. And we have to recognise that many of the major players are now using GG for results. AOL is the latest and is expected to start using a GG db towards end of this summer.

It's unfortunate but many of us very much dependant on Google.



PS... I hear rumours that Yahoo is in talks with AlltheWeb
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:42 AM   #22
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zero6
Why would i want to invisibly link?
That sort of behaviour might get you banned by google

My point was that we should not bow to the whims of PR when developing our sites, IMO The highest priority should be the visitor not THE search engine.

I understand we all want to do well in google, but i'm sure that hiding a few links will NOT accomplish that.
Building useful relevant and unique content should be top priority for building traffic.

Sorry gone off topic a bit
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:42 AM   #23
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Hi all,

Very interesting stuff. I admit I'm a bit enamored of Google, not just because it's been very good to me, or because it's my search engine of choice, but also because I'm just plain interested in how the algorithm works. It has 'elegance' (in the sense in which that term is used in science) and I'm a big fan of elegant systems. (They're very instructional.)

I've had a gut feeling for a while that zero6 is on the mark when s/he writes:
Quote:
Googles algo is I think based on what the Web was originally about when it was first conceived.
Some of my sites probably get far fewer uniques than many of their competitors, and yet they rank higher in Google than many of those competitors. I've wondered if that could be due to my webmastering style, and what the characteristics of my style are that make Google reward my websites with good PRs.

I'm not particularly interested in trying to design my sites to optimize the other search engines because frankly, I can't for the life of me figure out how they determine ranking. And if their algo is that hard to decipher, how could one possibly hope to maximize it?

On the subject of inbound links, has anyone ever compared inbound links on Google with inbound links on Altavista? Altavista has many more inbound links for my sites than Google does. Considering that Google has so many more pages indexed, why do you suppose that would be? Could it be due to selectiveness on Google's part based on the PR of the inbound link?
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Old 06-26-2002, 10:54 AM   #24
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I just build how I want it for the most part, then make adjustments here and there and see how it pans out. I wouldn't change my design just for a search engine. But, if possible, I do keep them in mind. It's just the last thing I look at normally.
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:01 AM   #25
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SurfChick,

You dont think I would use a tactic so imorral do you..... But still you dont always win by following the rules. A bit of lateral thinking is all i'm saying.

Still I understand your point and I agree. But what I'm saying is if you want to rank well for competetive keywords in GG you got to push the limits.

Rhea..

If youre ranking better than your competitors then it's likely you might look at your title. Killer titles are key to pulling the traffic.

I havent looked at GG/AV for inbound links. Be interested myself in that kind of data.

z6

Last edited by zero6; 06-26-2002 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-27-2002, 06:29 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhea
On the subject of inbound links, has anyone ever compared inbound links on Google with inbound links on Altavista? Altavista has many more inbound links for my sites than Google does. Considering that Google has so many more pages indexed, why do you suppose that would be? Could it be due to selectiveness on Google's part based on the PR of the inbound link?
Spot on Rhea
Google doesnt show inbound links from a PR of less than 4
Thats why it doesnt show all inbound links

zero6
Fancy sharing some of your Limit Pushing Tips?
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Old 06-27-2002, 07:31 AM   #27
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Surfchick

When I retire from this game I plan to publish my complete methodology for gaining top search listings for competetive keys and maximising your search based traffic.

Perhaps on this forum.... But I dont plan to retire yet.



z6
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Old 06-27-2002, 07:46 AM   #28
Rhea
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Hey surfchick, thanks for confirming my thoughts about Google's inbound linking process. I'd considered spending a few hours comparing my inbound links on Altavista to those on Google, but it would have been a joyless exercise in bean-counting. :-)

zero6, you could write an e-book. Then we wouldn't have to wait until you retire to learn your secrets! (hint, hint)
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Old 06-27-2002, 08:03 AM   #29
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I like the sound of that. Maybe I could market it and get some money for it.... You guys can have it for nothing...

But to be honest though, its mostly common sense and some lateral thinking. As you already said Rhea, Google is an 'elegant' system, trick is to keep your system simple too.

z6
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Old 06-27-2002, 10:45 AM   #30
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Glad to be of help Rhea

Guess we'll have to watch this space for a new e-book coming soon!, Just let us know first zero6
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