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Old 03-06-2001, 08:49 PM   #46
Ben91
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doubleclick.net is not hard to get in.., I know many **** gaming sites that got in it.. Besides , even if it means splitting a portion of our revenue we will do it with doubleclick, we'll cut a deal but i guarantee u we wont stop until doubleclick.net accepts us as a publisher

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Old 03-06-2001, 08:50 PM   #47
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Sorry Ben, double click hardly cares about the gaming industry. Rememebr that site I mentioned, well, it's a gaming site which at its peak served 35,000,000 banners. Doublecast provides about 3 million banners (paid ones) a month and the cpm is less than a dollar . The fct that you're so eager to join their network shows me that you really dont know what you're talking about as well as you say.

If you know of a $1.50 guarentted cpm (and I dont mean $1.50 befor eyou split it) network, then sign up and take it. Double Click has not escaped the internet drop, even their high level sites feel the crunch and their rates have dropped a few hundred percent. Dont kid yourself and try to say that just because you expect to get into a service you will... 3000 active threads in a forum since Jan. 28th is nothing too impressive.

Like I said, if you know wher eyou can get between $1-2 for all 3/4 million of your ESTIMATED banners, take it and run like hell.
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:54 PM   #48
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Two key points.

1. L90 won't pay you $1-2CPM. We made $0.18CPM with them and were losing money in January in February.

2. Doubleclick only has 3 gaming sites and wouldn't even consider a site with 3 million page views.
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:57 PM   #49
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what are the 3 gaming sites in doubleclick?
thats bull**** btw..
i nkow GAMERS.COM is in it
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:59 PM   #50
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btw guys, why is the internet advertising market falling apart? and why are advertisers acting so lame and always whinning , they are getting massive impressions and paying 1 penny for each.
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Old 03-06-2001, 09:01 PM   #51
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Ben, your goal here is confusing to me. It seems that everyone is telling you that you cannot get what you think you can. You say that you've already been accepted by one network that will give you $1-$2 CPM, presumably L90. And yet essentially everyone with anything to say about L90 says that they do not deliver what they promise. And yet you don't listen to that.

If you think that you can talk your way to the CEO of Doubleclick, well, more power to you, I guess. But as many people are pointing out, your site is insignificant to them and they aren't accepting gaming sites. And yet you still go on saying you can get in with them. Why?

There's more to running a successful business than talking at people until they give up. People that give up in this manner won't have successful operations because they've been talked into deals that aren't good for them. So smart people, like the folks at Doubleclick, will kindly invite you to go away. If you keep harrassing them, as mentioned, they'll eventually threaten you with legal action to stop bothering them. "Knowing how to talk" won't help you then.

If you're so convinced that you're going to get $4 CPM, go out and do it. You are asking for advice on this forum, but seem unwilling to heed any of it because it doesn't fit your expectations. That's a quick road to business failure.

Best of luck.
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Old 03-06-2001, 09:04 PM   #52
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what im saying is , if we cant get 4$CPM rate, then we'll get 2$CPM rate ,2 banners a page...


and if none of those public ad agencies will offer us at least a steady 2$-3$ cpm rate then they can kiss our arses , we'll get our own inhouse ad management and sell our own ad space to corporate advertisers for very low targetted prices.

anything to get that 2$-3$ cpm , we will do!

remember, you can never fail by trying , you can only fail by abandonning all hope which is prolyl why half of this forum abandon hope http://geekvillage.com/ubb/frown.gif)


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Old 03-06-2001, 09:05 PM   #53
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Ben, many of the people who traverse this forum have been in this business for several years, and are familiar with how DoubleClick and the other major network operate.

If you know so much better than all of us (as you are so proud to claim), then why did you post here asking for advice?

There's nothing worse than someone who puts out a plea for help, and then bashes those who attempt to offer some realistic and knowledgable comments.

You could waste your time harrassing DoubleClick, and getting nowhere. There are literally thousands of established, high-quality gaming sites out there that deliver 10 million+ monthly impressions that are happy to stick with the $0.10-$1 Net CPMs that they're seeing from UGO, IGN, Engage, 24/7 and L90 because DoubleClick won't accept them). As you've read above, even those fortunate sites that have made the grade and been accepted by DoubleClick are seeing rates far lower than the $2-$4 Net CPM that you expect. Alternatively, you could take the $1+ Net CPM deal that you claim to have been offered, and build upon that with affiliate programs, searchboxes and popups.

Please listen. It really is for your own good.

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Old 03-06-2001, 09:15 PM   #54
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Sorry Borga, looks like I was posting at the same time as you, and duplicated most of your comments. Anyway... http://geekvillage.com/ubb/wink.gif

Ben, I wish you good luck (sincerely).

Hiring your own sales team may be the way to go if you are unwilling to settle for anything less than $2CPM/banner. You will, though, have a hard time justifying that rate for below-the-scroll banners, and you'll have to "walk the walk", rather than "talk the talk" to attract that rate for above-the-scroll.

Part of the reason for the ad depression is because advertisers have wisened up. Their now looking back at the experimental run-of-network and run-of-site campaigns that they've run over the past few years, and are looking for data to help them accurately calculate their ROI. Many will ask you for valid traffic figures and demographics before signing up with you, and will then ask for their figures to be audited after the campaign (this is standard with large-scale campaigns). If you expect to place those $2CPM banners on your forum pages, you will soon chase away all of your advertisers.

Those figures are incredibly optimistic even for a forum that receives the strong, targeted viewership that this one, or SitePointForums receives - let alone a gaming forum which are a dime a dozen.

We're not trying to patronize you, but simply to caution you not to base your business model on unrealistic expectations. That's the path that many pioneering Internet companies took - and we all know where AllAdvantage, Go.com, eUniverse and Snowball are now. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/wink.gif

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Old 03-06-2001, 09:25 PM   #55
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Im not sayign im better than u guys, im saying im a fighter , im a leader not a follower . im saying , if u cant find a 2$ cpm rate anywhere then your obviously not looking in the right place. I have heard many japanese ad agencies , private ones were offering high cpm rates . Further more, winstar interactive, ad agency, i believe its a high division of doubleclick.net, offers cpm rates of 40$ to 100$ CPm rates to extreme high traffic sites and even low traffic sites.

sites like bloomberg.com, 255 million impressions a month, getting 78$ CPM rate , however the catch here is that, you must be a leader online to get that high cpm rate.

Even a small law firm site , was getting 500 000 impressions and they were getting 25$CPM rate, why because they are a huge leader in their category...


so obviously either u become a leader , or u squeeze in , 1 pop up here, 1 banner here frmo 1 ad agency, 1 banner there from another ad agency. and try to get that 2$CPM rate all 3 combined, and still mainting site integraty without annoying your visitors.
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Old 03-06-2001, 09:35 PM   #56
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Yes, Winstar Interactive, Phase2Media, DoubleClick Select and a few other reps do continue to offer high rates, but these are very exclusive, and only serve sites with desirable demographics and brands. Only the very elite gaming sites stand a chance of gaining representation there.

And yes, you've got a great chance of generating $2CPM+ from a variety of outlets. That's much smarter thinking than expecting a minimum $2CPM from a single banner.

In addition, maybe you can leverage your ability to negotiate by striking up a deal with Sony, NVidia or Electronic Arts to sponsor your forum on an exclusive basis.

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Old 03-06-2001, 09:37 PM   #57
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Ben,
While optimism and ambition in this area is great, and I certainly wish you the best of luck, your views are unrealistic and a bit reckless. I'm not going to sit and rip on you or point out why you won't get close to what you want, but what you do need to understand is that few things will kill your website/business quicker than basing a business plan on Utopian views of the world (advertising industry). You've had some very smart, experienced people tell you that what you want isn't possible. I suggest you at least think about what they have said http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

I highly doubt calling up the DoubleClick CEO will help you either, for reasons that have been brought up several times. Quite simply, no amount of "talking" will get you something that they can't even give you, especially since you bring so little to the table. By this, I mean that you have a website based in a genre that is being avoided by advertisers, it is a new site, you have very little demographics and most of your pageviews are coming from a forum. I'm not saying your website isn't any good - I'm sure its an excellent site - its just that advertisers don't really want to advertise on the type of site you have.

I hope you'll take some time to consider what I have said, along with what all the other folks have said. There are more ways to make money than CPM banner ads, I suggest you explore other methods, because frankly, you can't count on much CPM these days, much less any meaningful amount sold at decent prices.

Good luck with your site http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif


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Old 03-06-2001, 09:53 PM   #58
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everyone saying 0.5 .90 cents cpm rates is the average you'll get. i am positive you can get higher than that, and a net 1$CPM rate, because 50 cents cpm rate is a joke, u make more cash with CPC lol than 50 cents cpm rate


BY THE WAY , about my site, its not even launched if u havent notice.... its launching 20th of march.. so dont judge it too quickly, u havent even seen anything on it.
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Old 03-06-2001, 10:09 PM   #59
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I hope you didn't mis-interperet my last comments, I didn't mean to say that your site wasn't any good. It looks pretty good so far and I'm sure it will look even better when done. However, that doesn't change the fact that you are in a genre that advertisers don't really want to advertise on. 50 Cents CPM is a joke, especially when compared to your costs to run sites, but it is all most advertisers are willing to pay. You are correct - you can make more with CPC (and other) models. CPM is usually the least lucrative way to make money. Using CPC/CPA you can do quite well if you work to find good sponsors and target them for your audience. Sure, it takes more work, but it can be more rewarding as well http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

take care.

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Old 03-06-2001, 10:09 PM   #60
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Ben, we're not judging your site; but the market niche in which you are positioned.

If you speak to the publishers of the top gaming sites, you'll hear that rates are way down in this arena. This is across the board, with even quality sites receiving pitiful CPM rates.

Just look at how the gaming networks are doing. CNET has turned its back on its affiliates, UGO has reduced its payments to $1CPM for its best affiliates, while relegating the others to far lower rates (One of my film-related sites was supported by UGO, and saw rates drop to $0.15CPM before I dumped them). Snowball/IGN has also dropped most of its affiliates, while offering minimal support for those who remain, eFront has faced severe criticism for offering bare-bones rates and eUniverse has reduced its network to one that supports popups only.

None of us have relegated to the acceptance of low rates. I think you'll find that everyone who actively participates at Geek/Talk (including many webmasters of gaming sites that launched long ago), continue to push their sites to the networks and to individual advertisers.

You may think of yourself as a leader, but the truth is that there are thousands of gaming sites that have come before you and attempted to pull off what you are hoping to achieve. You may indeed be able to see success through dedication, wisdom and contacts (as many of us do), but you'll have to launch the site and prove its worth before any network will consider you. The only sites that can gain elite network support prior to launch are those that are affiliated with major brands, or whose pockets are filled with VC dollars.

&lt;edit&gt;Yet again, I post at the same time as someone else. Apologies for repetition...this sure is a hot topic! http://geekvillage.com/ubb/wink.gif&lt;/edit&gt;

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[This message has been edited by Czar (edited 03-06-2001).]
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