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Old 09-14-2003, 04:34 AM   #46
Elemental Thought
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I'm going to throw in my two cents here. Iwrules, even if you partner with one of these applications, the reason advertising and applications like this are labelled as "scumware", "malware", etc, are for these simple reasons:[list=1][*]Most people do not read or understand what they are agreeing to. They simply click "Ok" so that they can speed up the installation process.[*]"Scumware" advertisers know this and take advantage of the user's ignorance.[/list=1] Now, we can argue until the Internet is dead about whether this is the user's "fault" or not. It is irrelevant whether it is or not. If you come along and change their home page, well sure, you have their ignorant permission, but do these people really want you to? I am sure in this (hypothetical of course, right?) situation that the check box is not labelled "Give my permission for [KaZaA/whatever] to change my home page". It's probably something more like "Sign me up for great deals and freebies*", where the terms of the "deals", as well as the home page changing, are laid out in the fine print. Correct me if I am wrong.

Do you change your home page all the time? Do you like it when you go to a site and it asks you to change your homepage to that site? I can't imagine that you do. Do you actually click yes, and change your homepage to these sites? Of course you don't.

I pose to you this question: If you were to do a poll of the people who's homepages you've changed, what percentage of them do you think would answer "yes, I actually wanted my home page changed, thanks"?

Please answer honestly, with your best estimate.
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Old 09-14-2003, 04:45 AM   #47
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Sorry to interrupt you guys, but I have to add:

I'm sure you broke the law, because:
1. There is no full list of 'partner sites' when I install Kazaa
2. It's not even mentioned that by installing kazaa I agree and accept all forms of self-install programs
3. I've clean computer [no kazaa-like programs] + weekly registry clean + antiviruses, but some sites still able to rewrite my registry with their homepage info without my confirmation. So, I still thinking that you should proove GV community that your popups rewrite registry ONLY because victim have those mentioned cookies.

Personally, I think it is absolutely safe to name these popups as virus and ban them off the ad network that distributes it. It is also a good business practices to make a small money compensation for all publishers of the named ad network.

I'm surprised that sashman was banned. At least he warned publishers of such popups. I think he thought that such popups were reviewed & accepted by named ad company so probably he wasn't seeing any other way of telling the rest of the publishers about the danger.
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Old 09-14-2003, 07:31 AM   #48
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I really feel the urge to defend Sashman as well, on all points he's been challenged on in this thread:

1) Bringing to attention a problematic ad by posting on GV is doing everybody a great service, not defamation of the said ad network IMO. When I first read Sashman's post, it certainly did not create a poor image of the ad network in question for me in any way. It's a simple heads up thread.

2) I would hope Sashman would get unbanned. Per the reasons above, there is no reason for this IMO. In fact, banning him creates a poor image of the ad network as intolerant of any negative feedback, even legit ones that when addressed benefits the ad network itself. It also just draws more attention to the issue, and makes observers wonder if there's in fact something to hide.

3) Regarding the suggestion that adoutput.com is scumware in itself, I completely disagree. Pop up blockers are certainly within users right to download and utilize, but when that user comes to my site, I have every right to disable that feature, as it is my site, and if the user realizes that pop ups are still being served, he/she can certainly leave. It is a completely unforced, user dictated decision. And no, I don't consider a user coming to my site requesting not to see a pop up and still seeing it "forced." Forced would be if he/she still has to visit my site under these conditions. That can only happen if the browser becomes repossessed by the devil. Now, if I were serving malicious codes within the pop up ads, that's a seperate issue from disabling pop up blockers itself, and would venture into being wrong and unmoral then. But the point is, it would be a seperate issue, and shouldn't be used in combination to label adoutput.com as any sort of scumware when the two issues are in fact not related.

Just my two cents.
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:25 AM   #49
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iwrules - im still waiting to see the part of your code where you query a cookie on kazaas site to check if I have such software on my computer..

I expect ill be waiting a long time, as its simply not there (ive already looked)

so basically, your whole argument of having pre-agreed to a homepage change when I (supposedly) installed kazaa is nonsense, because you dont even check..
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:41 AM   #50
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I'm not sure if that thread on SI's forum still exists, but in their defense .. After warning me "not to 'warn' people again and utter their companies name in the same phrase and if I did I should take my business elsewhere", I told them I would save us both a headache and be on my way. The ban was probably the door in the phrase, 'don't let the door hit you on your *** on the way out.'

I only sent them about 2k impressions a day so it's no big deal. Plus, due to their influx of double pop popbehinds, gator ads mysteriously entering the mix, and now this; they were on the way out anyway. I wasn't going to subject the few receiving these ads on my site to that kind of treatment.

Last edited by Sashman; 09-14-2003 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:07 AM   #51
lwrules
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Default I am startled.

I am startled that nobody has the guts to publicly defend the "unpopular" side of the argument here. I received no less than 30 emails yesterday from people who read this forum, who wish to do business with me and take advantage of the benefits of what we do from an advertiser/publisher angle. Regardless, I will continue to answer these questions/accusations as best I can. By the way, I do commend people for keeping this relatively professional. Steve does a good job controlling this forum.

With reference to preference. Let's be honest here. Don't use the argument that if you took a poll of how many people would say "yeah please ***** around with my homepage settings" of course more people would rather continue down the path of free music stealing (or free software in general) without ads or setting changes etc. But that is not how business works. "Push" advertising companies don't usually take polls. They base their strategies on "results." If I only received complaints and headaches but no ad results, of course this model would prove not viable. However that is NOT the case and since there is SO much inventory, I run CPA ads - so the ad results are actually based on real positive actions.

As far as coming in here and proving, in intricate technical detail, the deals with software companies and cookie retrieval methods, I did not offer to participate in this conversation with the intent to give away our proprietary code or trade secrets. Nor did I come here to prove that my word is solid. I'm trying to discuss the general subject matter, not the gory specifics of my practices, as per the terms of service of Steve's forum. This is not a defense trial and I won't act like it is.

I still await somebody's reference to any law since the word "illegal" keeps getting thrown around.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:14 AM   #52
lwrules
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Default jokearound

To address jokearound's outright accusation:

>im still waiting to see the part of your code where you query a
>cookie on kazaas site to check if I have such software on my
>computer..
>I expect ill be waiting a long time, as its simply not there (ive
>already looked)

You wouldn't even know where to look since it's not even done on our site. Plus most of the work we do is done via perl scripts that you can't retrieve. And you WILL be waiting a long time because if I gave away our technologies you can rest assured that the people who quietly sit back and read this discussion with dollar bills in their eyes would try to find a way to do it and stay stealth about it - something I chose NOT to do.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:20 AM   #53
hammer
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It's unusual for Alexa users to post site reviews unless something gets them upset enough.

The Alexa reviews certainly tell a story.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/re...passthison.com

I've visited the site, and if the pop ad you are using takes a visitor to the site above, I have a few problems. I publish content for all users, family friendly to mature, however, not adult or porn.

When I visited the above site, I received an explicit adult pop with explicit images, and I also received a search window for users over 18 years of age. This occured when I clicked on the home page icon in IE.

I really don't know what the terms of SI are concerning advertisers providing adult content. They may allow it, I don't use them, so I really don't know if they allow or disallow this in their terms. However, as a publisher, I really frown upon changing the home page of a user in this manner, only to be directed to a site promoting adult content.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:45 AM   #54
lwrules
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Default This is the way I interpret the alexa page you referenced.

My interpretation of the story is... wow, eight people state they hate POP-UPS. I don't see too many people discussing home page tactics. What alexa doesnt show is CPA pops pulling 5CPM to 10CPM. You don't see pages generating 15CTR. You dont see 182MM daily impressions unfilled inventory and you don't see accounts receivable. All you see is the rant of about 8 people about pop-up practices over a period of three years.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:46 AM   #55
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ok, if its done behind the scenes, how do you account for the fact that it changes the homepage on CLEAN machines?

there is no kazaa cookie on my machine (I just did a spyware scan) - but your site tried to change my homepage anyway..

so, your magic code must be malfunctioning..
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:49 AM   #56
hammer
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I'd like to know SI's terms for Adult content ads. As far as I know they don't allow adult sites to participate in their programs, so why would they allow advertisers to spawn adult adverts?
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:53 AM   #57
lwrules
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Default why

Why would you need to do a spyware scan to see if you have a kazaa cookie on your system. Besides you claim your machine is clean, so did you install Kazaa and then do a scan? Regardless, spyware scans have nothing to do with cookies that reflect preferences.

And besides, do you have ability to adhere to Steve's rules of this forum - this is not a forum to further your personal agendas so I'd appreciate if you kept your accusations in private and use this thread to discuss the subject matter.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:55 AM   #58
Sashman
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Quote:
Originally posted by jokearound
ok, if its done behind the scenes, how do you account for the fact that it changes the homepage on CLEAN machines?

there is no kazaa cookie on my machine (I just did a spyware scan) - but your site tried to change my homepage anyway..
Exactly. From SI to his ad on a fresh machine and the code is still executed. Either something broke, or he got greedy. It's humerous that he still defends his position with this point.

Last edited by Sashman; 09-15-2003 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:56 AM   #59
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Quote:
I still await somebody's reference to any law since the word "illegal" keeps getting thrown around.
By your own admission, the methodology used in setting this pop-up in the first place is illegal. It is a privacy issue!!! There are some very popular and highly publicised court cases involving this very technique. Including Yahoo, Amazon, and Double Click.

The latter being the most relevent. Here are several "actual" laws that make this method of query strings that are used in this method illegal:

Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2701
Wiretap Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 1030
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Old 09-14-2003, 10:02 AM   #60
lwrules
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Default you have no respect for Steve

Don't you have ANY respect for Steve and HIS terms of service? This isn't a forum to further your now-obvious personal agenda. The comments you are making are innapropriate and I suggest that Steve now lock this topic since it is apparent that certain geeks have the inability to keep things from getting personal. I am here on my free will to discuss this subject matter and you are making it impossible for me to do so because I refuse to endulge in conversations based on unfounded and inaccurate public allegations.
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