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Old 01-20-2006, 01:30 AM   #61
Darryl
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It's interesting that Keiser would say that, and I'm inclined to think that he was misquoted in that article. A blanket license is simply not possible without legislative intervention. There is no way the MPA, HFA, or ASCAP (still trying to figure out how/why ASCAP is even involved...) can force such a license on publishers. No publisher is obligated to license their lyrics for any fee. The best they could do is offer a "blanket" license for all the content owned by publishers who opt in, but then that's really not a blanket license at all.

The legal reality is that without legislative intervention to force it, there are certain lyrics that will never be legally printed - "That's Life", as performed by Frank Sinatra, comes to mind - Dean Kay just won't allow it (and he has his reasons). There's nothing the MPA, HFA, ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, CMRRA, SOCAN, SODRAC, CSI, or any other acronym can do about it, regardless of what they say.
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:11 PM   #62
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CPM based but thru rss or another method of agregation? Which means when a search engine/bot crawls your site you also pay?
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Old 01-21-2006, 04:39 PM   #63
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Yes, you would still have to pay for those impressions - however, you could modify your robots.txt file to not display to them. On our end, we have no way of differentiating between spiders and real visitors.
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Old 01-21-2006, 08:41 PM   #64
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I assume you will have some type of fraud detection to stop competitors from just reloading pages over and over. Will you also be auditing the traffic stats each month (or billing cycle) to insure you are only charging for legit views?
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:05 AM   #65
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Quote:
You could modify your robots.txt file to not display to them
Blocking search engines from crawling a site.. that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, I would think So blocking the crawlers is out of the question.

Assume a site would have 300 000 lyrics.
Then one crawl of google would cost -> 300$. But then you have Yahoo Slurp & MSNBot. -> 900$

Then assume that a lyric site has 1000 000 real page views a month. This sounds like a lot to me. At 1 cpm to the music industry that site would have to real in 1900$ just to cover the costs. That's 1.9 cpm. + Assume that only 30% of that mil pageviews was usa + canadian traffic.
That means 300 000 pageviews real pageviews are left over in the new system and you'll need to cough up only 1200$ to cover the costs but that's a pressure of 4 cpm.

My guess is only the really huge lyric sites could adopt this system...
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Old 01-22-2006, 08:37 AM   #66
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True, this system won't work at $1 cpm, unless a lyric site has $2 cpm on average and I doubt it, it's not that niche. There are waaaay many factors there. Luckely I'm in europe as well.

By the way I operate a lyric site as well for 6 months now, and I still haven't sold even 1 CD through amazon,even if I did sell let's say 10 x 5% = 5 bucks.....probably I shall try the digital options Darryl mentioned.

Last edited by N_F_S; 01-22-2006 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 01-22-2006, 10:34 AM   #67
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The iTunes program is the same **** as amazon. 5% or 4% commision and nobody buys songs from your site. If you want to buy a song, you start up iTunes, not a lyric site.
This whole idea is doomed to fail.

Last edited by Eriky; 01-22-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 01-22-2006, 01:36 PM   #68
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We can't do much on our end to control fraud, since all we see is the same IP address (your server's) requesting over and over again. However, there are lots of things that can be done on the site to prevent fraud, and I believe we've still got some scripts lying around from our previous life as an illegal lyrics site that would help with this that we'd be happy to share.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of being spidered. Google, Yahoo, etc. don't spider 300,000 pages/day, or even a month. It takes a long time for them to go through everything, and they certainly won't spider everything every month. If you're running a lyrics site now, look at the traffic and spidering happening right now - that's how much would happen after the switch. It's pretty easy to do the math on that and figure out what your eCPM is, spidering included, and the number of lyrics pages that are viewed.

As for affiliate programs, there are lots of sites (like GoFish) that make lots of money just off of referrals to iTunes and others, so it's certainly possible to be successful that way.
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Old 01-22-2006, 05:19 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darryl
We can't do much on our end to control fraud, since all we see is the same IP address (your server's) requesting over and over again. .
Thats not true at all, you can for example place a 1x1 pixel image which tracks the referer and other information. Im not sure how you expect people to pay for the use of lyrics and then hang them out to dry by essentially saying 'you are on your own and if you get ******* we dont care'.
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Old 01-22-2006, 05:24 PM   #70
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Lol. You can cache the content you recieved The system is not foolproof. And nobody is going to pay for a license if crawlers can't index your site. So what can you do? You can audit the code of every site you sell a license to. I wonder if that can be pulled of. Or if that would even be legal. Like I said before, this is going to be very interesting as it seems like this is never going to work.
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Old 01-22-2006, 07:36 PM   #71
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One of my sites with a ****load of pages:
78308 pages vs 103317 robot pages this month according to awstats.

And like eriky says how will you stop caching?
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Old 01-22-2006, 07:47 PM   #72
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I hate to be so blunt and harsh about this, but our terms explicitly prohibit caching (it's part of our agreements with publishers). If we catch someone violating that term, not only will we cut you off immediately, but you'll also be first in line for a lawsuit. We're running a legitimate business here, and we don't expect our clients to be cheating us.

And you can't seriously expect us to track everybody's traffic through 1x1 pixels and parse for fraud, do you? We're not that big of an operation yet. Maybe someday, but not immediately. It's a whole lot easier for us to show you some steps you can take on your own site to prevent it than to try to track everything ourselves.

That being said, if we see activity that is obviously fraudulent, we would not charge for it and we would take that up with the publishers. We're not interested in cheating our clients any more than they should be interested in cheating us.
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Old 01-23-2006, 06:00 AM   #73
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Another example. Say you use google adsense. The google crawler will hit your site 50% of the time to show a matching ad. If you have dynamic content, this can go up to 100%. You're paying $4 CPM.

Now I looked up my stats. I have 1,5 million pageviews from different crawlers:

- google search + adsense
- yahoo
- Ask Jeeves
- msn, etc.
- some japanse/chinese bots
- etc.

I'm being conservative here. It's probably more like 2 million pageviews, but I only look at the top 20.
This is about 65% of the total number of pageviews on my entire site. A site like this would pay $2000/month for crawlers alone. Or at 1 CPM $1000.

You're saying it takes long to crawl a site. I can tell you google is my biggest customer in terms of pageviews and always has been. Google alone easilly indexes your entire site a few times a month. Then there's yahoo slurp, msnbot and other search engines that pop out of the ground daily. Then there are site rippers. They write scripts to download all your content. This happens on a daily basis. I even wrote software to protect my server from overload and block ips. It still costs me time and money. Some site rippers use 100s of anonymous proxies to hammer your server.

People are saying only big sites can cough it up. I don't think so..
The CPM model is fair for all parties involved, but there are more caveats than you think.

One last example. I heavily rely on caching. An external (xml) request for every pageview sounds like a slow and fragile system. I think many people will prefer to cache content for a few hours.

I'll try to think with you here. So here's my idea:

A better tracking model would be a small remote javascript or 1px image. This way you have several advantages.

1. You prevent counting search engine and robot hits.
2. Your and the webmasters servers will have less load.
3. By using caching (like PEAR Cache_Lite, Smarty, etc) you reduce the dataflow -> more overall efficiency.
4. You can verify whether or not the javascript code is included on lyrics pages

Just copy the ad networks, they have been doing this for years and it still works.

The data can be provided by XML, using a per site key. You can limit access to one or a few IP's to prevent abuse.
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Old 01-23-2006, 11:57 AM   #74
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Wow...that's A LOT of crawler traffic. Much more than I would have thought.

I'm not sure about the AdSense point - I don't think they hit your site every second time they load an ad...do they? That seems excessive. I don't recall hearing about that before.

Our XML API is VERY fast - it isn't noticeable to a web surfer. Yes, caching would still be faster (of course).

I will look into the possibilities of using a 1x1px image, and bring it up at our weekly meeting today. Obviously, I'm not promising anything We've got to figure out both the technical and legal issues associated with both caching and not counting crawler hits.
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:53 AM   #75
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There has been some talk in this thread about paying to get licenses and still being able to make money. Sometimes some very creative ideas might be a very big help.

Universal Media Holdings Inc. has purchased Lyric Jeans Inc. which is a company that prints lyrics and song titles on denim jeans and other clothing.

The plan is to have agreements with recording artists and music publishing companies to obtain licenses for songs that they will use on their clothing line.

Maybe some Geek/Talk members can come up with some new ideas that will allow them to have licenses and still make good money.

Here is more about Lyric Jeans http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/fa...?news_id=12176
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