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Old 11-27-2000, 05:55 AM   #31
SearchTraffic
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>>>>
It's much easier to perform weekly updates in order to keep up traffic.
>>>>

Yikes! Traffic???

What about $$$ ?!?

And what kind of combination of CPM and return visitors does it take to make money?

If your getting a $2.00 net CPM and you have 5000 return visitors...even if they come back weekly...you're talking about a whopping $40.00/month.

I want to see things from the other side...I really do....but you're not making a case here. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Old 11-27-2000, 06:44 AM   #32
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There are two answers to the question of "Are returning and bookmarked visitors of any real value?". The answer depends on the type of site you're running.

If you're selling things, then repeat visitors are extremely important. This is a tenet of retail -- it's a lot easier to retain a customer than it is to get a new one. I won't even go into detail on this one.

If you're a site publisher, then repeat visitors are bad. I don't want to believe it, but every CPM/CPC network is skewed against repeat visitors.

Repeat visitors don't come to your site for the ads. They come for the content. And because of that, they don't click on ads. They probably get the brands stuck in their heads because of all the exposure, but they don't click because they're not interested in shopping, they're interested in content.

And the ad networks, recognizing this, have made it harder for content-rich sites to make money, by optimizing payments for "unique" visitors -- by not showing ads to "non-performing" visitors, with the new "per-unique" campaigns like popup or popunder, or by showing endless CPC ads that a repeat visitor to your site will not click on.

If you said to me "I have two sites. One gets 10,000 pageviews a day with 1000 uniques, and the other gets 5,000 pageviews a day with 4000 uniques, you can have either one of them, I'd take the second site, because I can make more money from it (that's if I was just interested in just making money, which is what this thread is centered on). I can bet it would make a lot more money than the first site.

However, if you take this to it's natural progression, then the only sites that can survive are those that are designed to make money, which means sites that don't offer you any content, just affiliate links, etc. And that means that people will stop going to the internet because it will be like late night TV -- paid programming, shopping, but no content or information, because that is economically discouraged.

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Old 11-27-2000, 01:39 PM   #33
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Amen.

SearchTraffic started this thread, and he was strictly considering revenue.

Lots of people have given counterexamples, but haven't really addressed the cash issue.

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Old 11-27-2000, 08:59 PM   #34
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My goodness, what do you want us to do?
Lay out our spreadsheets?

I doubt that the people who have figured out how to profit with return traffic will share the ***** details in a forum ... but I keep hoping http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

There are plenty of content sites online that would indicate something is working.
Remember, there are dozens of avenues to make money with a website.
If fact, I could take down every banner and affiliate link I have on my biggest site, and it would still be very profitable.
Sometimes it is not what is happening on the site rather what is happening off the site http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif
A website can display a much different image with regard to the intent of its creation.

It really depends on the site mission as mentioned above.
I have found that a detailed position strategy based on sound content, aggressive marketing, and a true passion for what you are doing will certainly help you get where you want to be faster.

Return traffic/bookmarks provide me with a "report card" of performance for my sites.

Chazhound http://www.FreeReports.net
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Old 11-28-2000, 12:29 AM   #35
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I like the saying, "Until the grocery store starts accepting HITS as payment...." I think someone from SI was the first to say it.
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Old 11-28-2000, 04:58 PM   #36
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Let's not let this thread die...I can smell the wood burning from the brainpower being used. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

In a similar vein....eBay has the highest average time spent per user session. Why do you think they don't use banner ads on the listings pages (they only use in-house banner ads)

They are the ultimate return visitor site and one that could actually make money from returning surfers.
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Old 11-28-2000, 06:31 PM   #37
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I'm guessing the ultimate question here is how annoying do you want to make your site in the name of making a buck? Putting up blind links and $15 CPM autospawning multi-window exit banners could make you more money with less traffic, though like SPAM, these practices are in the disinterest of the internet and will only drive people away from using the web at all. I make a decent income from my site without employing these strategies and having a majority of my traffic from return visitors. As in any business, there are ethical responsibilities that should be considered as well as a measure of pride in the content you are offering... unfortunately some lack either quality.

By the way, if UBB could be configured so that 1/2 of the threads on here were blind random paid links and this site enabled the feature, how many of us would continue to visit it?
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Old 11-28-2000, 06:55 PM   #38
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TheWebHead - that's kinda a jump ain't it? There are a zillion things almost any site can do to increase earnings, most of which don't involve involve making the site unusable.

Ralph - I sympathesize.

But I think the reality is that (most) good specialist content is not gonna stay free, except when it's done for love by author.

An analogy I'd make is magazines or software.

What kind of free magazines can you get? Catalogs, company house magazines, etc. All good magazines, are not 100% ad supported.

What kind of ad-supported free software can you get? Mostly it's stuff with a very broad audience + obvious, usually connected, revenue stream. You don't get specialist or niche software free.

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Old 11-28-2000, 11:43 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheWebHead:
....By the way, if UBB could be configured so that 1/2 of the threads on here were blind random paid links and this site enabled the feature, how many of us would continue to visit it?
Great idea. Give me a few days to implement it please http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif <this is a joke>

Seriously, Although I don't use blind links, blur pages and similar tactics, it's a real stretch to even mention "spam" or "ehtical responsabilities" in the context of this procedure. Perhaps I'm reading more into your statement than I should so please excuse me.

"We" don't hang around non webmaster folks enough. I do and take surveys on what they think and how they view the net. Iv'e done this for years with the exact age range of the majority of surfers. Guess what, they aren't upset, most let the page load, and they just view it as part of the net. They are not as sensative to these tactics as "we" are. Finally, none of these tactics will drive them away from using the net.

This BB was built as a labor of love. I'm passionate about making this place your favorite quality hangout. I wan't you to bookmark the BB and come here often. You can't build Community and generate revenue without this. Iv'e never been driven by money. Then a friend of mine beat me over the head and told me to sell adverts. I do fine with this, make a profit, and still love what I do and hope the majority of folks who come here share my passion for quality. And, I'm still driven by passion and not money!

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[This message has been edited by Steve_S (edited 11-29-2000).]
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Old 11-29-2000, 06:10 AM   #40
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HA!
Webhead never lets an opportunity pass to put a dig in...

SI could give away free solid gold toilet seats and webhead would post that gold gives him a rash on his butt. http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

As I always say, make friends with your Porsche dealer, not the surfer. The surfer DOES NOT CARE about you. Surfers DO NOT click on links to support your site. If they find a similar site they like better surfers WILL NOT return to click on your banners out of loyalty.

If you don't want to use popups or other methods to maximize income thats your choice. ESPN, AOL, Netscape, Excite, iNside, and many others all use entry popups.

WebHead...what are your sites again? I keep missing them. Please let us learn from you! I'd love to email you as well. Whats your email address?

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Old 11-29-2000, 07:39 AM   #41
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Altavista has an entry popup depending (I think) on your IP. It never comes up on my leased line, but it does when I use a UK dial-up service.

On a lighter note, the following domains are still available, should anybody want them:

freesolidgoldtoiletseats.com
freesolidgoldtoiletseat.com
solidgoldtoiletseats.com
solidgoldtoiletseat.com
goldtoiletseats.com
goldtoiletseat.com

Correction about altavista - the popup just appear (I have a background window with it open in), about 2 mins after going to the site. Now that is annoying.


------------------[*]Thousands of killer dot com names - available soon from just $11.97 each.[*]All the information is FREE[*]Be first to get access (and grab great names) by sending a blank e-mail to domaincavern-subscribe@listbot.com
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Old 11-29-2000, 07:56 AM   #42
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WildComputer,

We have http://www.Solid-gold-toiletz.org


(tounge-in-cheek mode is ON)
Those popups on AltaVista are annoying? What about those commercials during TV shows where they actually interrupt the program to insert an advertisement? Are people shutting off their TV's enmasse? Is there revolution in the streets? Are folks talking amongs themselves vowing never to watch "Seinfeld" again because the heathens dare to attempt to make money? http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

Surfers want EVERYTHING to be free with ZERO advertisements.
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Old 11-29-2000, 08:13 AM   #43
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I have no moral objection to Altavista annoying me or anybody else. It's their choice. If they don't make money, they don't exist. I accept http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

What is annoying is not so much that they have a pop-up but that it comes up after a delay, the pop-up loads really slooooooooow, and is always the same darn thing - which incidentally I know is generating them zero revenue, as it's always the same house ad.

------------------[*]Thousands of killer dot com names - available soon from just $11.97 each.[*]All the information is FREE[*]Be first to get access (and grab great names) by sending a blank e-mail to domaincavern-subscribe@listbot.com
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Old 11-29-2000, 09:37 AM   #44
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I think the online advertising industry has to (and I think it will) continue to evolve far beyond banner ads to provide content-driven sites their well deserved return on investment.

Still the question I would like to ask you is if you think that will happen.

If not, micropayments can be a great revenue stream for good content sites.

I think paying small amounts (5 to 50 cents)for small services can bring new life to the web.
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Old 11-29-2000, 11:19 PM   #45
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eBay is a good example, I guess... I'd be hard-pressed to think of a company making more money on return visitors than they are. They have an enormous ratio of revenue to customer acquisition cost almost entirely because of repeat visitors and word-of-mouth.

If the question is "what's the most profitable way to make money off of 5000 visitors per month?", the answer isn't "ad revenue". Asking whether repeat traffic that only makes $2 CPM is of any value is sort of like asking "What good are customers if you make less off of them than a jewelry store would?" The answer is that we can't all run jewelry stores and we make do with what we have.

Given that some of us are running low revenue per visitor sites, the answer is yes--they're valuable for some of us.

As for popups and blind text links, I don't usually go back to sites that use them, but it's not the end of the world. Of course, I'll turn on the popup-smashing features of Mozilla if they're ready in time for Netscape 6.01.
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