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Old 06-01-2001, 05:05 PM   #31
emmzee
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"I cannot imagine why affiliates who depend on CPC traffic should receive money for those clicks. It was said that those kind of sites have poor conversion on sales and leads. Why would an advertiser want to pay per click for low quality traffic?"

Isn't that for the advertiser to decide? I mean if an advertiser wants to pay per click for traffic that's their decision ... if they found they weren't making money from the traffic they received then they'd stop doing it, correct?

And also ... I guess clickXchange is pretty darn happy right now. First ClickTrade cancels CPC ads and now CJ. More business for them! http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Old 06-01-2001, 05:15 PM   #32
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Just got a SLEW of messages from my programs..

Funbets.. dropped pay/lead from 0.25 to 0.01
FreestuffDirect-- shutting down
MyFreePhoneCards--Shutting Down
ProPay.. .02/click to $1/lead


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Old 06-01-2001, 05:22 PM   #33
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Those $9.50 GoTo links for casino search words are incredible. Can they possibly be making money? Most affiliate programs pay that per SALE not click.

Personally I am happy with as little as 1 cent per click. I hate lead programs on CJ because most of them are setup to get hits, not leads. Example: A win a free car site would make the entry form very difficult to find on their site.

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Old 06-01-2001, 05:28 PM   #34
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were dying people... i guess you have to be yahoo to survive nowadays... http://geekvillage.com/ubb/frown.gif
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Old 06-01-2001, 05:31 PM   #35
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Kaiosama said:-

<b>If your site is not capable of selling anything tangible or intangible, you're dead.</b>

I'd just like to focus on this for a moment. Why is this a bad thing?

Sure, for the individual site owner, it's a terrible thing... but for the overall health of the Internet industry it's great news, frankly. The companies running affiliate programs and relying on them to make sales are ALL motivated by the same driving factor: maximizing profit. They have to be - it's just the nature of business.

There has been this weird disconnect on the Internet for many years now, where people could literally receive "money for nothing." Even if your site's traffic was so poor that no sale EVER resulted from a single one of your visitors, you could find ways to get paid via certain PPC programs.

From an economic perspective, that's just crazy!

What I hope will happen is this:-

A) The sites with traffic that is demonstrably "zero-value" (i.e. no matter what CPA programs they try they can't make any money) will either close or go back to being hobbies
B) Those sites that have "value-added" traffic will slowly but steadily see RISING revenue as a result for merchants competing to snare these performing sites.

Ultimately, within a few years on the outside, I expect that over 90% of the "fun stuff" type entertainment sites (whether it's people chatting about games, downloading screensavers or whatever) will be gone. And that's normal, in economic terms!

To put the above into perspective, revenue on my main site has gone from over $10,000 a month to under $500. Am I happy about it? Of course not! But I think the underlying trends pushing my drop in revenue are GREAT for the overall health of the Internet industry.

Have I just opened up Pandora's box? http://geekvillage.com/ubb/wink.gif

Edwin

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Old 06-01-2001, 05:49 PM   #36
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The thing is that with CPC programs the burden is on the merchant to make the conversion. They are FORCED to design a page that will convert into a sale or lead. However until CJ released it's Open Marketplace their was no need for the merchants to do so. As long as they had atleast 1,000 or however many leads to get to CJ's minimum (I believe they charge more if you don't).

They were able to advertise themselves for free. Hopefully this will not happen with CJ's new system. It can go one of two ways...
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Old 06-01-2001, 05:50 PM   #37
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TopFreebies
EnterWeekly

Also gone

Merchants on the East Coast + in Europe probably didn't get the announcement email until after the close of business today - so check your message box on Monday

Another thought: If you want to improve your affiliate rating, it would seem a simple way to do it is to remove CJ banners, and use CJ for text links only (use another network for banners). For example, if I go from hundreds of thousands of CJ banner impressions to a few thousand targeted text link impressions, my affiliate rating would suddenly improve. Is that good for CJ ?



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Old 06-01-2001, 05:54 PM   #38
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I am not sure if Wild's above post is supposed to affect affiliates too but I got my email about the new terms at 5:15 PM EST, almost 5 hours ago... That is 2:15 PST...

Also I live in the east coast.
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Old 06-01-2001, 06:06 PM   #39
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First, my congrats to everyone so far in this thread for remaining rational, civil, well behaved, and contributing great thoughts to what is perhaps the worst news we have ever encounter in nearly 3 years. I will do my very best to insure that we continue to offer a high quality resource to help you during these challenging times.

Taking Edwin's comments and inserting them into another industry to illustrate that these business/economic prinicpals have occured before. In the late 70s and early 80s just about anyone could sell real estate in the Southern California market. If they could breath they generated 5k "spiffs" in sales. Then came the economic slump and lenders pulled back, forclosures were sky high because of the slow economy and a lot of "stupid" loans. Realtors left in droves, escrow shops closed, mortgage bankers dwindled to a very small number. REOs were so high that great parts of the city sometimes had 3 houses on the same street in forclosure. Many loans turned out to be "upside down" as the lender thought the buble would never burst. The net net is that very few of the "I can breath" crowd who were making huge commisions remained in the industry. Having lived through this I can tell you that it was VERY VERY painfull. I lived on my credit cards for almost 1 year untill the tide turned.

Today, the ones that are still around in these industries are doing even better in inflation adjusted dollars than they ever did. The banking industry is healthy and the other associated industries are stable and well managed.

Good luck to all http://geekvillage.com/ubb/smile.gif



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Old 06-01-2001, 06:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by havaloc:
I think that the changes are great changes for everyone.

I think that this is going to clean up a lot of the garbage on CJ...

Can't see how you'd say that. Programs plenty of us use will
collapse, conversions will suffer for those programs that stay,
less money earned for everyone except CJ. This will practically
put a stop to all CPA on CJ.

Sure we can survive, but I don't know anyone who'll benefit from this.
Ooooh, so I'll now know which sponsor converted a little better
than the other! Tell you what, I probably already knew anyway.
Difference is now there will be less programs to compare.

One thing is for sure, the next company to come close to the user
interface that CJ provides to match affiliates and merchants
will become rich. If I had the man hours behind me, that's what
I would be doing.



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Old 06-01-2001, 06:43 PM   #41
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Kaiosama - yes my last post is directed primarily to affiliates.

On the mail, the point being that many merchants would not have had time today to analyze the news and decide their strategy going forward.

On the banners, absolutely it affects affilaites.

Merchants also see affiliates' ratings, and those merchants who want to improve their ratings are not going to want too many relatively unproductive affiliates.

Banners not only get less clicks than text links, but convert less well. So my understanding is that an affiliate who displays a lot of banners will look relatively bad and may not be accepted into a merchant's program because he suspects that it will bring his average EPC rating down.

Therefore if you are an affiliate and want to ensure a good rating in CJ, the best way to do it is to remove the relatively unproductive CJ ads. For example if you have banners + text links, even if your banners produce some sales/leads they could drag down your average rating.

So one strategy to ensure a good CJ rating is to put non-CJ banners in your rotation (even though the CJ banners were converting).

Here's a hypothetical example:

- Site X produces 1,000,000 total impressions for CJ right now

- 900,000 impressions are banners. CTR is 1%, and revenue from this is $180. Which works out to $180/9000 = $0.02 effective per click

- 90,000 impressions are relatively untargeted text links. CTR is 2%, and revenue is say $90. This works out to $90/1800 = $0.05 effective per click

- 10,000 impressions are highly targeted text links (e.g. articles containing reviews and personal recommendations). CTR is 10%, and this generates $100. This works out to $100 / 1000 = $0.10 effective per click.

Average effective price per click = $370 / (9000+1800+1000) = $0.031

Now if you want to improve your affiliate rating, you would eliminate CJ banners (use another network or affiliate program for your banner space, there are plenty to chose from!), which would make your average effective CPC = $190 / 2800 = $0.068

And if you want to really improve your rating, you would eliminate the relatively untargeted text links too, to raise you effective CPC to $0.10

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Old 06-01-2001, 07:04 PM   #42
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Wildcomputer - if text links really did follow your example and performed twice as well as banners, why would webmasters mind?

They could replace those relatively huge, ugly, bandwidth-consuming banners with a few tidy text links - and double their money, while improving the experience of site visitors at the same time!

By definition, if one type of advertising is producing twice as much income per CPM equivalent as another type of advertising, and you can serve the same amount of both, absolutely everyone would rationally choose the second type.

Edwin

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Old 06-01-2001, 07:05 PM   #43
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If nothing else, publishing the rates reduces the risk associated, so that's probably the only good development they announced today.

Is the cut of CPC ads really the result of fraud or that of the cost per lead/sale fee minimum? You decide.

Speaking of Clicktrade, how often do you hear someone mention them?

Quote:
The rating system (as I understand it) almost invites merchants to work their numbers.
Something I hadn't really considered, but yes, I think we'll see a lot more terminations, as well as something mentioned later in the thread (picky, picky selection process).

Quote:
Funbets.. dropped pay/lead from 0.25 to 0.01
FreestuffDirect-- shutting down
MyFreePhoneCards--Shutting Down
ProPay.. .02/click to $1/lead
And this is just the beginning.

I think a lot of people here are assuming that all there is on the Internet is stores and that those stores all believe branding is not worthwhile.

[This message has been edited by SSacobie (edited 06-01-2001).]
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Old 06-01-2001, 07:15 PM   #44
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Edwin I agree that the text links perform better, we know that by now I hope!

But it's not always a simple choice of banners vs text links. You may well have banners for other reasons:

e.g. you sell banner space and use affiliate ads for unsold space, or as defaults from your ad network, or banners are the extra cream on your base revenue, or a hundred other reasons.

So for example, right now if you were using CJ affiliate banners as your defaults, you might want to find a non-CJ default which is not going to bring down your CJ rating.

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Old 06-01-2001, 07:19 PM   #45
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SSacobie - "I think a lot of people here are assuming that all there is on the Internet is stores."

Whether we're looking at stores or other kinds of sites, the same basic rules of economics must prevail.

My site is a perfect example. EmailAddresses.com gets over 250,000 visitors a month, but these are people looking for FREE EMAIL.

As I have found, that was fine while there were a lot of relatively high-paying free email affiliate programs (the cash was practically falling from the skies) but now...

Well, now, the rules of economics have caught up with the free email providers, and they've figured out that their traffic is close to worthless. In other words, their users are not the kind of people predisposed to opening their wallets often in response to the advertising shown to them.

Net result #1: A lot of free email services have shut down, unable to even make enough to pay for hosting and minimal staffing

Net result #2: The "survivors" have figured it's not worth paying much for an extra "customer" who is bringing practically no additional revenue to the business

Net result #3: My site's revenue-generation potential has dropped 95%

But all of the above is as it should be!

Had I started focusing, 3-4 years ago, on building the best site that road-tests and compares new cars, for example, I'd be willing to bet I'd be raking in the $ round about now. People would be visiting that kind of site with a completely different mindset from the get-go. They'd be interested in comparison-shopping for new cars and, hence, very receptive to targeted advertising for new cars and related services (credit facilities, etc.)

But I focused on a "fun" area, and now I'm finding out that "fun doesn't pay". I guess that's why it's called "fun", after all.

I'm not bitter about it, just glad that I was in the right place to catch the crest of the wave and ride it as long as I did. Now that I'm on the beach, with the surf dying down, it's time to focus on something else.

Let's be even more brutal here: if you run a site that doesn't pay for its own upkeep, it is NOT A BUSINESS! It is a HOBBY, no matter how much you might wish things to be otherwise.

There are three ways out of this dilemma:

A) Treat the Internet as a business - and find a business MODEL that WILL work
B) Treat the Internet as a hobby and accept that, just like any other hobby, it will cost you money from time to time
C) Give up on the Internet from a webmastering perspective and enjoy the summer sun (apologies to Southern hemisphere GeekVillage members!)

Of course, different shades of A)-C) can apply, but these are the 3 basic paths stretching ahead of any webmaster running a site that is not designed FROM THE GROUND UP as a business.

Anything else is just crying into one's beer/milk/beverage of choice - though I am as guilty as the next guy of enjoying a good winge when things get tough!

Edwin

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