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Old 12-20-2001, 05:40 AM   #31
Edwin
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What you just said contradicted the point of all my articles!

The merchant with the high ticket price will be MUCH MUCH HARDER to test on your site, since you're going to have to send a massive number of clicks in order to find out if your particular audience can sustain the same EPC as "average"

The low ticket price merchant is very easy to test... just send 3x as many clicks as their average "conversion factor" and you'll know whether their program fits your site's audience.

(the above assume the case where the two merchants' EPC figures are IDENTICAL)

Trust me, ON AVERAGE you're not going to "get lucky" with the $50 a lead merchant, because the EPC figure is already reflecting all the people who got lucky and all the people who got nothing.

The ONLY time I would contradict myself is if you have very low traffic, so that you would be unlikely to make the minimum check level through accumulating low ticket sales. Then you're basically playing "lottery" with the program: keep sending traffic in the hope of beating those odds...
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Old 12-20-2001, 05:45 AM   #32
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You said:-

Yup the name of the game is conversion. These way both side wins. We would definitely work with merchants with high EPC because we know they can close the sale. Merchants would also like to work with high EPC affiliates because they can deliver the sales.

This is wrong!

Actually, as I explained at some length, EPC says NOTHING AT ALL about the ability to convert sales.

You have to take the EPC figure and DIVIDE it by the payment per lead to calculate the ability to close sales!

E.g. EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $2 means 25 sales per 100 clicks (1:4 closure rate)

E.g EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $200 means 0.25 sales per 100 clicks (1:400 closure rate)

The EPCs are IDENTICAL but the closure rates are totally different.
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Old 12-20-2001, 09:09 AM   #33
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Sorry for being vague. This is all just my opinion and I'm in no way saying your wrong.

IMO, EPC does measure CR but not CR only. It is only part of the total package. There are many things that affect the EPC.

a) cookie duration (if a merchant has a 1 day cookie compared to another with 45 days then chances are the 45 day cookie merchant will have better CR).

b) reversal rate (this affects EPC as well)

c)% commission on a product ($5/lead can get you a max of EPC=$500 & $50/lead can get you a max EPC of $5000)

In the end, EPC measures the overall perfomance of a merchant with other merchants in the same category. I should have written performance in my previous post and not conversion.


As for the second post of the $50/lead, it was really just a matter of choice for me. If everything is constant i.e. (both merchants have same 3month and 7day EPC, same CTR, you drive the same targetted traffic.) In the end you're earnings should also be the same per 100 clicks.

What we see are network averages. Some might do much better with the $50/lead merchant (i.e. convert 1 sale every 100 clicks) Or you might see after 1000 clicks then bang 3 sales. Affiliate marketing has evolved and it's not as easy as CPC where your earnings per click is constant.
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Old 12-20-2001, 09:48 AM   #34
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Default Hmmmmm......

Quote:
Originally posted by Edwin
This is wrong!
Actually, as I explained at some length, EPC says NOTHING AT ALL about the ability to convert sales.
You have to take the EPC figure and DIVIDE it by the payment per lead to calculate the ability to close sales!
E.g. EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $2 means 25 sales per 100 clicks (1:4 closure rate)
E.g EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $200 means 0.25 sales per 100 clicks (1:400 closure rate)
The EPCs are IDENTICAL but the closure rates are totally different.
I think that gives a very clear understanding. With all the reams of notes you make I just can't read all that & figure it quick ; )
That short & simple example did it for me.

Anyone think that is wrong ?
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Old 12-20-2001, 11:47 AM   #35
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Edwin, I agree with most of what you're saying, but here are responses to a couple of your points:


1. I don't agree that a low-ticket merchant is necessarily better than a high-ticket one with the same EPC, or even that a high-ticket one is harder to test. Maybe the higher-ticket merchant will do better, so why avoid it? It doesn't take long until you see that the clickthrough rate is 1 in 100 or 1 in 10,000 or whatever.

I think what it comes down to is that you have to understand your site and your audience, then stop fighting them and give them what they want. If I went with all the highest-EPC programs, my site would be plastered with credit card and term life insurance offers (and I'd be starving). Yet I have one very lucrative sponsor with a low EPC, and which I guess wouldn't do well on most people's sites.


2. I'm not concerned about the EPC variation between different ads for the same merchant. As I hinted at earlier in this thread, people who just slap up a button or (especially) a banner will get a poor clickthrough rate and those clicks will probably not be pre-sold or well-targeted.

On the other hand, superaffiliates who take the time to find a product well-suited to their audience, and integrate an ad naturally into their site, will tend to customize the text links. And when done well, that approach can vastly increase an ad's conversion rate.
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Old 12-20-2001, 03:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vrindavan
Kaiosama

1. We cannot put impression tracking code on text email.

2. The person can view stored email message more than one time or many many times later of the same message, the ad reponse is not the same as ads on website.

3. When we read email offline, impression tracking again is meaningless.

4. Someone has already point out, I do too, is that I will place more than one banner or text link in one webpage.
What about 30 or 100 product links from the same merchant in one webpage.

5. When a data is actually not accurate at all.
It will do more harm than good to us if available.
(wrong picture, wrong impression to actual fact)
I should have made myself more clear... I mean that newsletters are a totally different issue but for webpages i really don't see why one would exclude tracking images. I should have said webpages specifically. I'm not even asking CJ to record impressions for newsletters and if possible they could have separate newsletter links.

About point number four yes it's entirely possible to do that but once we visit the individual links we can see the epm of each and judge an advertiser using that.

CJ can also do a number of things to avoid the product issue like not include it in the overall EPM of an advertiser. Yes, that's not a perfect solution but it's a start. The thing is that with EPM or even CTR you can calculate alot of important data before trying out a merchant.

You can place an ad out there with a great epc but get a very poor CTR. I'm not saying that EPC doesn't help but wouldn't the CTR or EPM also help? Wouldn't it help to know what the average CTR of a certain ad has? Fineclicks.com seem to believe so and it doesn't seem to be hurting them at all. Getting the EPM would be very simple once you know both the EPC and the CTR.

Edit: Don't ask me why i keep on writing ebay instead of CJ, I'll try to re-read what I write next time.

Last edited by Kaiosama; 12-20-2001 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 12-20-2001, 06:02 PM   #37
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Just to illustrate further, this is what I'll do when I'm faced with this dilemna.

First thing off, it would not be good to just assume that because you see that both merchant's EPC are the same that they are the same. I would definitely do further investigations as to why the high ticket merchant has a low EPC.

a) check to see if they have a high reversal rate (80% or more?) maybe this explains the low EPC.

b) cookie duration is one day?

If everything seems fine, I would definitely check the individual links. Just a scenario:

Merchant's A ($5/lead) text links has an EPC of 1.00 while banners on average has an EPC of 5.0 but the whole average for this merchant is 2.0. Merchant's B($50/lead) text links has an EPC of $10 while its banners has an EPC of 0.30 (due to very high CTR). Both might have the same EPC but clearly you can see the winner.
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Old 12-20-2001, 10:42 PM   #38
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Edwin

Quote:
Actually, as I explained at some length, EPC says NOTHING AT ALL about the ability to convert sales.

You have to take the EPC figure and DIVIDE it by the payment per lead to calculate the ability to close sales!

E.g. EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $2 means 25 sales per 100 clicks (1:4 closure rate)

E.g EPC of $50 and payment per sale of $200 means 0.25 sales per 100 clicks (1:400 closure rate)
We are comparing EPC to similar merchants.
You are giving examples like
1. selling magazine $2 per sale
2. selling a merchant account $200 per sale
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Old 12-21-2001, 02:16 AM   #39
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Joma's got good points. I will second them and save myself some typing since I'd only say the same thing, in that regard. I can also understand the comment about credit cards and loans--their high EPCs haven't helped them make money on my sites either.

I will add this, though:

If 2 merchants are selling the same thing at the same price, and paying the same commission, but one has a huge EPC and one has a lousy EPC, I think it can be safely said that something's wrong with the low EPC one and that the EPC is a fairly good red flag. Finding out what's wrong, and whether it can be overcome from the affiliate side, takes a bit more work!

Other than that, I can see the flaws in EPC that Edwin has pointed out as to the EPC not showing the full picture because it doesn't take the CTR into account.

Wly, thanks for the welcome!
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Old 12-21-2001, 10:05 AM   #40
rolli
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Hi,
all we are discussinghere is more theory. But if you really want to understand what we are talking about:
login to your cj.com account
goto the run reports tab
goto the performance report
click on 50 best performing links/ last year


The datas you will get explain everything.

Jonny
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