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Old 05-11-2005, 05:14 PM   #1
Larwee

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Default Claria (Gator) has something new for publishers

Claria, which was previously known as Gator, is offering a new service which they say will make it possible for publishers to customize pages for individual visitors. They call it "PersonalWeb."

Different people have different opinions about how this behavioral targeting related feature works.

Here is an article with the full details about this Claria feature http://publications.mediapost.com/in...&art_aid=30060
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:02 PM   #2
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What's the point of it? Make sure your visitor knows it was you who infected their computer and caused them lots of pops?
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:12 AM   #3
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Gauntlet's tone is bound to be reflected in the greater web publishing market. While behavioural targeting will become a major driving force in e-commerce and online advertising during the coming years, a number of publishers (including myself) won't express an interest in testing a technology from that particular company due to the fact that they attained their position in the market by deliberately stealing revenues from legitimate web publishers and by (arguably) confusing and tricking consumers into downloading their controversial applications.

Thanks for the link, though. It does give a good indication as to how far behavioural tech has advanced of late.
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Old 05-12-2005, 09:29 AM   #4
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didnt doubleclick come under major fire for something similar? how come behaviour tracking is "acceptable" now, and not 5 years ago?
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:17 AM   #5
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This is actually a rehash of what was announced in 2/05.

Date: 2/17/05:

"About a week ago Gator/Claria announced the formation of a new affiliate network called BehaviorLink.com and a marketing division named Vista Marketing Services. The PR releases indicate that Gator/Claria intends to spend over 100 Million dollars to purchase ROS inventory from Webmasters/Publishers and other networks. That's a ton of money to spend and certainly believable since Gator/Gain is a darling of the VC crowd and has already received over 58 million in VC funding according to this article. Additionally, Gator/Claria continues to generate buckets of cash profits as in millions of dollars from their operations and has a huge amount of data on it's 40 million plus users. Finally, their planed IPO and it's infusion of cash also supports this business plan." - My own fair use exstraction

1. Please remember these names and just say no thanks and that means never

2. The millon dollar question I have for our Affiliate Network Reps/CEOs/Suits members is this:

Would you run their inventory? Even if they paid a premium to buy their way into the marketplace? Are you willing to run the risk and taint your image by crawling in bed with these guys, knowing that Elliot Spitzer (the AG of NY) is nearly guaranteed to strike fear into the heart of every single player in the Spyware industry via additional law suits. Don't believe me? Ask the major Stock Brokerage houses and Insurance industry about the Billons they paid and the actions they took to clean up their act.

Your answers please?

3. If you think about this, they must buy inventory from major networks since they have a zero base of affiliates. If ALL the Networks say no thanks you choke their launch. Their attempts may be clouded by moving down the chain to third tier networks who in turn run their inventory through Tier 1 Networks so due dilligence is the operative word.




Last edited by Steve_S; 05-12-2005 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 05-12-2005, 02:53 PM   #6
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40 million consumers + DB ...Claria's adware subscribers(?!) - I think they own more of that 80%+ of Internet computers infected (subscribed) with forms of spyware (under other corp. company names).

"...Claria currently is in discussions with publishers who might participate, he added."
Claria probably own affiliate networks already, if not, 58M would buy a couple of them.
"...the publisher might serve him news stories..."
no wonder why feeds are getting popular recently (feed networks).

"The program requires customers who have already downloaded Claria's ad-serving software to specifically opt in for personalization."
I am wondering how Claria defines "opt in" and "subscribers". ("forced in" and "subduers")

The only hope is that names like Spitzer would push laws to clearly limit the invasion of privacy by called "opt in" alternatives, etc. The usual problem: As long as there is money to be made (+ ignorance), few will oppose to these "opt in personalizations".
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Old 05-12-2005, 08:48 PM   #7
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While a lot of people might not like Claria legally they are completely covered by law since their program complies with law unlike intermix who is being investigated by Spitzer. Now regarding the new network from what I heard it will not be active x ads, etc.. but rather it will serve regular banners, etc.. from the same advertisers as burst, fastclick, tribal, etc..



Quote:
Originally posted by Steve_S
This is actually a rehash of what was announced in 2/05.

Date: 2/17/05:

"About a week ago Gator/Claria announced the formation of a new affiliate network called BehaviorLink.com and a marketing division named Vista Marketing Services. The PR releases indicate that Gator/Claria intends to spend over 100 Million dollars to purchase ROS inventory from Webmasters/Publishers and other networks. That's a ton of money to spend and certainly believable since Gator/Gain is a darling of the VC crowd and has already received over 58 million in VC funding according to this article. Additionally, Gator/Claria continues to generate buckets of cash profits as in millions of dollars from their operations and has a huge amount of data on it's 40 million plus users. Finally, their planed IPO and it's infusion of cash also supports this business plan." - My own fair use exstraction

1. Please remember these names and just say no thanks and that means never

2. The millon dollar question I have for our Affiliate Network Reps/CEOs/Suits members is this:

Would you run their inventory? Even if they paid a premium to buy their way into the marketplace? Are you willing to run the risk and taint your image by crawling in bed with these guys, knowing that Elliot Spitzer (the AG of NY) is nearly guaranteed to strike fear into the heart of every single player in the Spyware industry via additional law suits. Don't believe me? Ask the major Stock Brokerage houses and Insurance industry about the Billons they paid and the actions they took to clean up their act.

Your answers please?

3. If you think about this, they must buy inventory from major networks since they have a zero base of affiliates. If ALL the Networks say no thanks you choke their launch. Their attempts may be clouded by moving down the chain to third tier networks who in turn run their inventory through Tier 1 Networks so due dilligence is the operative word.



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Old 05-13-2005, 12:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevenuePilotRep
While a lot of people might not like Claria legally they are completely covered by law since their program complies with law unlike intermix who is being investigated by Spitzer. Now regarding the new network from what I heard it will not be active x ads, etc.. but rather it will serve regular banners, etc.. from the same advertisers as burst, fastclick, tribal, etc..
RPR, You are correct with respect to the fact that Gator is currently "legal" however I still consider all their actions to be morally and ethically reprehensible.

Like this bit of deception:

"The Claria Corporation recently saw fit to revise their EULA for Kazaa: "At 5,936 words, the license stretches to 63 on-screen pages as presented by the current Kazaa installer (bundling with Gator). (See screen-shots of the Gator license as presented in June 2004, then requiring 56 on-screen pages.)"

"Here are some notable sections of the license: "You agree that you will not use, or encourage others to use, any unauthorized means for the removal of the GAIN AdServer, or any GAIN-Supported Software from a computer."

"Gator proceeds to list the "authorized means" for removing Gator -- prominently failing to authorize use of popular tools, such as Ad-Aware, Spybot, and Web Sweeper, which millions of users count on to remove unwanted software from their PCs."

"About four thousand words through its license, Gator demands: "Any use of a packet sniffer or other device to intercept or access communications between GP and the GAIN AdServer is strictly prohibited." Source: http://www.benedelman.org/news/112904-1.html

My own additional thoughts:

"Talk about CYA! While Gator/Claria appears to have the authority to create an EULA any way they wish, it's apparent to me that the primary goal of this new EULA is not to properly inform a potential user with clear and easy to read terms but rather to confuse them and attempt to limit a consumers rights to install other properly licensed software on their Windows machine. In my 20 or more years of working with software, I have never seen such a long and confusing EULA and I have never seen another company attempt to limit my rights to purchase/license other software.

Finally, if we are to believe the PR spin of Gator/Claria that they are so squeaky clean and embrace the world with their moral high ground and legal compliance, why are they so paranoid about others folks using a sniffer to see exactly what they are doing. What are they hiding? What tricks do they plan to perform which they don't want others discovering?"

Respectfully, Your suggestion that Gator/Claria will be mainstream like the other Networks you mention lacks validity. It's about a current business model of 40 Millon INfected machines and thats what they will use to deliver adverts. It's their business model. What on heavens earth would motivate them to go mainstream, given the riches they have already earned from their current business model. Maybe take a look at their site where it talks about behavioral marketing"

I'm not sure what you know about Spitzer but his selction of intermix had nothing to do with what is legal and what is not. It was based on the fact that they do really bad silent stuff, they are an easy mark, the stock dropped 23% the first day and MOST important of all this company is only the first of his many targets.

My sources tell me these Companies are on the radar screen for Spitzer:

Gator/Claria
180Solutions
WhenU

I could certainly be wrong about this, in which case I will be the first to state so however Spitzers previous methodolgy indicates that he eventuall goes for the biggest players in the industry and then brings them to their knees with BILLIONS in fines and agreaments to stop doing stuff that no prior "law" was ever vigirously enforced against them.

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Old 05-13-2005, 02:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
While a lot of people might not like Claria legally they are completely covered by law since their program complies with law unlike intermix who is being investigated by Spitzer. Now regarding the new network from what I heard it will not be active x ads, etc.. but rather it will serve regular banners, etc.. from the same advertisers as burst, fastclick, tribal, etc..
"...they are completely covered by law...". I do not need to see Claria being investigated to realize all the damage Claria is doing to web surfers' systems.

"The program requires customers who have already downloaded Claria's ad-serving software to specifically opt in for personalization."
If a visitor to a site running the new "PersonalWeb" ads ("...regular banners, etc...") gets interested in the "opt in personalization", he would have to install the "Claria's ad-serving software" first = infect his system first.

So you "...heard it will not be active x ads, etc..." ?
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:18 AM   #10
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While I do understand reasons why a lot of you don’t like Claria I still believe while at times questionable their practices are legal. After all the reason we have laws in our society is because we all need one unified set of rules to follow in order to maintain democratic society. Now if critical mass of people don’t like Claria or the practices of companies such as Claria then it means sooner or later we should have a new law come out which will target Claria practices. Now the main problem I see is the claim of ”auto downloads” by some individuals which I do believe is illegal however as Claria said they do not promote such practice and kick out distribution partners found to be doing so. Now in regards to long EULA the reason its so long is because companies such as Claria have to protect themselves against people who try to find ways to sue them, if such things wouldn’t happen EULA would be very short, also as a potential customer or user of software it is your responsibility to read terms of agreement, if its to long or you don’t understand it just don’t download the software its that simple! Steve if you would be buying the house and you wouldn’t understand the contract would you get the house anyways? Most probably not, at least I hope not! So it all comes down to people treating software agreements as joke and then later on complaining they got something which they didn’t want, so in my opinion what the government needs to do is to educate consumers about the importance of software terms of agreement this way we wouldn’t have a lot of problems in the first place!

Last edited by RevenuePilotRep; 05-16-2005 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:06 AM   #11
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You of course assume that folks actually get to read a deceptive EULA which in the case I documented also attempts to abrogate my rights to use other properly licensed software on my machine to remove the C stuff. Thats deplorable!

For example:

"Claria's ads install Claria software with a mere two clicks -- one on the ad, and one on a single "Yes" button shown thereafter.

Claria's ads show users a Claria license agreement only after Claria software is installed, and users cannot cancel installation after the license is displayed. "

Source:

http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/in.../ezone-claria/

I'm certainly not an attorney but the argument of weather stuff is "legal" often resolves around a given point in time and weather an AG has decided to sue and ultimetly prevails. For example, your argument of "legal" would have applied to intermix untill they were sued by Spitzer or perhaps you still consider silent drive by installs "legal", indorse same, and will continue this trend of thought up untill the day that they loose in court.

I gather from your reasoning and posts that RP supports Spyware and is currently engaged in direct and or indirect relationships with the Spyware crowd? Correct? Please correct me if my assumptiions are incorrect.

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Old 05-16-2005, 11:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevenuePilotRep
While a lot of people might not like Claria legally they are completely covered by law since their program complies with law unlike intermix who is being investigated by Spitzer.
an investigation (even by ny's esteemed eliot spitz.) does not a guilty verdict make...
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:05 PM   #13
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Your statement is absolutely true UC.

However, if we look back at the previous actions and more importantly the net effects of Spitzer it should be clear as to what ultimetly happens and the net effect which is significantly different than waiting years and years for courts to say innocent or guilty.

A brief trip through memory lane: for your reading pleasure:

"Spitzer's spyware investigation recalls his successful national crusades against conflicts of interest among Wall Street stock analysts, dealers of mutual funds and insurance companies: A consumer concern is followed by a single lawsuit in an enforcement no man's land.

Negotiation for settlements follow, along with reforms to create new industry standards." Source:

http://www.informationweek.com/story...leID=163103921

In the above cases, none of which took multiple years we are in fact talking about an aggragate $ settlement number in the "Billons" of dollars and these industry players agreed to clean up their act.

The downside to this is what is referred to as "collateral damage" where an honest Affiliate Network and or it's Publishers/Webmasters gets caught up in this reform by Spitzer and thus suffers negative effects caused by the actions of the other players who either knowingly or should have known or turned a blind eye kind of thing engaged in direct and or indirect relationships with the Spyware crowd.

Finally, some folks are unlikely to ever share my anti-Spyware views. For those that do share my views, you can help Spitzer and his hard working team by gathering together all the evidence you can and then file a complaint via this page:

http://www.oag.state.ny.us/complaints/complaints.html

Of particular interest to Spitzer and team, based on his prior success with Wall Street are "Smoking Gun" emails. Thats the nail in the coffin along with current Spyware players who are willing to "turn" in excahnge for some sort of consideration

Happy trails to all
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Old 05-16-2005, 08:20 PM   #14
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Steve this is a truly a false statement to make to say that here at RevenuePilot we support spyware companies, in fact before now and in the future we stand strong against spyware providers and believe such companies should not exist! However what you are doing is calling a legitimate adware providers such as Claria a spyware company which is not true! Claria is a permission based adware provider and as far as I know they do provide EULA before download and like I said before if you don’t like their EULA you shouldn’t download their software. At this point hard working software writers have 2 choices to make money from their software which is to sell it or bundle it with an adware and give it away for free. As ironic as it may sound most visitors prefer to get free version with adware rather then pay money for the adware free version! Individuals such as you have to realize that everything can’t be free in this world! People who write software programs have to be able to make money from them and if not for legitimate adware providers a lot of software would not exist in the free form as we have it today! According to your logic I assume you would say its also ok for people to use ad blockers then visiting websites, after all you just don’t want to see pop ups, banners, etc.. but once again how about the hardworking publishers who produce content, do programming pay hosting bills, etc… they have to make money somehow after all its not a charity work! So at the end of the day if you don’t like adware pop outs, etc.. you can just buy the adware free version of software and pay money for ad free access to a lot of websites! And finally in regards to Claria EULA being deceptive I am not sure I follow you, how it is deceptive? And if you believe it is deceptive just don’t download the software which has Claria bundled with it it’s that simple!
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:52 PM   #15
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Yikes... let's back up a moment if we could please;

What I did type is this:

"I gather from your reasoning and posts that RP supports Spyware and is currently engaged in direct and or indirect relationships with the Spyware crowd? Correct? Please correct me if my assumptiions are incorrect. "

The first two sentences end with a ? (question mark) I asked a question. You have answered my last sentence and the question I asked so thank you for the clarrification and I do appreciate the fact that you are not involved in Spyware.

My position on blockers is well known and clearly documented for years and years and years in our Posting Guide. I don't like them but run them if you will and I'm not going to interfere. This comes from a prior owner (me) who could have used other methods via MySQL that no loged in member could have ever defeated.

During my time at the helm, I also recieved really HUGE offers for either the site itself or money to buy a Campaign directlyy from the Spyware crowd AND the abusive AdWare crowd directly or through their enimic attempts to use an intermidiary/Shill to trick me. In one case we are talking about 6 figures. Unlike a lot of folks on the net who seem to think that the pursuit of the almighty dollar justifies just about anything on planet earth, I said no thanks and that means never for any amount of money.

I find the notion and or even the inference/hint that Gator is Adware and not Spyware morally and ethically void and disengenous to say the least. Did you read and see Ben's screen captures on the previous issue? An install without an EULA and no way to back out of the deal once the EULA is displayed. At the end of the day I believe a third party will determine exactly which one of us is correct and weather or not they need to clean up their act. It's won't be you or me so we may just have to agree to disagree. BTW, some Adware which is well behaved, contains absolutly clear,short, and an easy to read EULA, a real uninstall, and does not ingage in piggy back partners who are undisclosed, and so forth, is absolutly great stuff and certainly understandable.

If Gator is Adware and not Spyware as you propose then why do we see dozens of remove Spyware tools that call them Spyware and dozens of sites which call them Spyware? They certainly have enough money to send out C and Ds like christmas cards. We in fact may reach a day that Gator wishes they were well behaved Adware and not Spyware.

Happy trails to all

Last edited by Steve_S; 05-16-2005 at 10:00 PM.
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