Webmaster Forum Rules | Posting Guide | Contact Us | Testimonials | Contributing Geek Program | Advertise on Geek/Talk
Welcome to the GeekTalk Webmaster Discussion Forums from GeekVillage.com

Click Here To Register. It's Free!

Go Back   geek/talk: Signature-free discourse for serious web publishers > YOUR SALES: geek/Marketplace > Website For Sale - Purchase - Barter - Trade
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2005, 06:54 PM   #31
Darryl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 201
Default

Not to worry, I do remember you

I can assure you there are no lyrics sites that have a license. If they claim to have one, they're either lying or misinformed. Which sites are you referring to?
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 08:45 PM   #32
thegauntlet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 515
Default

the guys at lyrics123 and metrolyrics. This is just what I have been told by them. Some things I don't understand is lyrics sites if not licensed are clearly illegal. All ad companies have TOS policies against running ads on sites with copyrighted material where the site owner doesn't license or hold the copyright, yet ad companies still accept these sites. And these sites do well.

Last edited by thegauntlet; 04-18-2005 at 08:48 PM.
thegauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 08:52 PM   #33
Darryl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 201
Default

I can assure you with 100% confidence that they are not licensed. In fact, MetroLyrics uses one of the age-old excuses:

"All lyrics are property and copyright of their owners. All lyrics provided for educational purposes only."

Interesting they would tell you that, though.

As for the ad networks - I've wondered that myself, though I suppose it's sufficient enough of a grey area - and they drive good traffic - that ad networks look the other way.
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 01:41 AM   #34
Czar

Webmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 9,506
Default

Good to see you back around these parts, Mr Ballantyne.

Thanks for your insight. It's definitely valuable to see this argument from the other side of the fence and your ability to relate to both camps makes for brilliantly rich contributions.

I'm relieved (and not too surprised) to hear that providing a search feature / link directory that points to official reproductions of lyrics remains legal. Sites that continue to host lyrics locally when unlicensed to do so, however, clearly remain risky propositions.

Thanks again for your comments.
__________________
Czar

Follow Geek/Talk's Twitter Feed and Facebook Page to stay up to date with new discussion threads and online ad industry highlights.

Important GeekVillage Links: Home | Rules | Posting Guide | Report Trouble | Feedback | Advertise on GV
Czar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 04:04 AM   #35
Envision
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Akron, Oh
Posts: 1
Default

As a lyrics webmaster, I must agree that it is definately a risky proposition to host lyrics locally. On the other hand, I don't see what the big fuss is all about. The record companies are going to be fighting a losing battle on this much like they are in the P2P networks. A search for "lyrics" on google currently returns over 37 million results! Making this even more difficult for the RIAA, is the fact that many of the websites originate from China, Russia, and India. I don't beleive that these could be shut down. In the end, I think the record industry should just admit that it is free advertising of their products! Just because someone likes a song they hear on the radio, doesn't mean they are going to buy the sheet music to get the lyrics. If they come to my site and read the lyrics and connect with them and then click a link to purchase the cd. How is this a bad for the record label.

END RANT

Sorry.....
Envision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:11 AM   #36
Eriky
I am a Contributing Geek. Are You?
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 309
Default

I couldn't agree more.. who on earth is going to buy lyrics. Can you even buy lyrics, exept from the covers of some cd's??
Eriky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:15 AM   #37
thegauntlet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 515
Default

I do believe that lyrics should be copyrighted and licensed. The artist writes the lyrics and it becomes their property. What right does a webmaster have to reproduce it, make money off it, and further exploit the artists work?

I take so many precautions now. I do carry licenses, but I also understand that a band might not want to be featured on my site. For the last 2 years, I require a full presskit and consent sent to me from the artist or manager. At the time it seemed like a good idea as I was switching from flatfile html to a database setup and had to hit the delete button on 2800+ bands. The problem I now face is I receive 20-45 presskits a day. I love heavy metal, but it is very hard to listen to that much of it each day. My other problem was I told bands they need to impress me to stand out with there presskit so i'll check it out. I have received the weirdest things from $, porn, live maggots, moths, pint sized sacks of blood and more. It's never fun having the PO Box company call and tell me to come immediately as my packages are moving and making noises.
thegauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 08:33 AM   #38
Envision
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Akron, Oh
Posts: 1
Default

Gauntlet,

Don't get me wrong. I to believe in the copyright of "performed" lyrics. You should not be able to make money from performing another personís work.

I started my site as a music fan. I wanted to sell cds, posters, sheet music, and concert tickets. I choose a lyrics site because that is where to gain the most traffic.

I hate sites that spawn active-x hell. Unfortunately, that is the growing trend with the foreign lyrics sites. That is not what my site is about. My site is about promoting the artists that the record labels have forgotten about because they're no longer the hot thing. The money I make is from the purchase of the artistsí merchandise.

If an artist asks that their work not be shown on my site, I remove them no questions asked. But, on the other side, I had a rock n roll hall of fame member send me an autographed copy of a new cd including a disc containing the lyrics to the entire album asking me to post them to my site. I think when push comes to shove the artists realize this is a great way to promote their work.
Envision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 10:08 AM   #39
Darryl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 201
Default

So, you shouldn't be able to make money off of performing someone else's work, but you SHOULD be able to make money off of reprinting someone else's work without permission?

That doesn't make sense.

All the publishers will be trying to do is take a piece of the $20M/year industry that's driven solely by the use (and abuse) of their copyright. Is that so wrong? Can you really argue that it's unreasonable, and they should just sit back, let it happen, and not be compensated?

And Czar - It's good to be back

Last edited by Darryl; 04-19-2005 at 10:11 AM.
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 12:16 PM   #40
creabiz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 0
Default license

Quote:
Originally posted by Darryl
Not to worry, I do remember you

I can assure you there are no lyrics sites that have a license. If they claim to have one, they're either lying or misinformed. Which sites are you referring to?

I disagree with this. We do have a lyrics site that does have a license. If you contact BMI and ASCAP you can get a license to publish this information. It is not very expensive and it is only fair to the artist that produce this.

I am not sure of the actual cost because we also have a brick and mortor business that requires a license agreement because we play live and recorded music and they are both paid together but it is less than $600 for both.
creabiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 03:19 PM   #41
Envision
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Akron, Oh
Posts: 1
Default

Darryl,

It makes perfect sense. I would say that 99.9% of the people who look for lyrics on the internet are just trying to find the words to a song they heard on the radio. Sure, sheet music may be a $20/Mil per year industry, but the people who come to my site aren't musicians. They're music fans that want to be able to sing the correct lyrics along with their favorite songs. They would never purchase sheet music to accomplish this. You can't print the lyrics from my site and play them in your stereo. It's not the finished product. It is just a piece of it.

I understand where you are coming from, but in the end, It is just another glaring example of how the recording industry has refused to move forward from an outdated business model to the digital age. Taking on the P2P networks to fight MP3's is a prime example. All this accomplished was to force the trading of music back underground between friends.

Like i said in my previous post, My site exists soley to promote the artists' merchandise. I don't make any money unless someone clicks a link to buy something. In which case, the ARTIST is getting paid.
Envision is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:19 PM   #42
Darryl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 201
Default

Envision,

I wasn't referring to the sheet music business. I was referring to the lyrics site business. The publishers already get their share of sheet music sales.

And besides, just because YOU think that you should be able to use their content just because you aren't making much money off of it (or only making money when someone buys a CD), does NOT make it OK to use copyrighted material without permission. You're surely on the right side of the moral equation, but you're definitely on the wrong side of the legal one.


Creabiz,

What site do you run, and who are your licenses with? I'm very curious to know.
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:19 PM   #43
creabiz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 0
Default

The real question is.....is this site still for sale?
creabiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 07:00 PM   #44
creabiz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 0
Default

We sold our site and it was combined with www.hottestlyrics.com. You will need several different license depending on the type of music. The main two are BMI which is http://www.bmi.com/ and ascap which is www.ascap.com.

This works just like a normal license agreement just like if you own a bar. If you own a bar that has live bands or plays club music you have to pay a yearly fee to these organizations who in turn pay this to the artist for the use of their music.

Anytime you use music in a commercial setting you need to contact BMI and ASCAP to get a licensing agreement. Between the two they license most main stream music.
creabiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 10:00 PM   #45
Darryl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 201
Default

While that's true (and you'd need SESAC as well), these organizations are Performance Rights Organizations (PROs), and should not have the right to license lyrics (See my earlier post about the function of PROs). I've personally had converations with members of the board of ASCAP, and they have assured me they are in no position to license lyrics for online use.

The PROs do not license anything where music is used in a commercial setting - for instance, digital music services such as iTunes and Napster do not pay licensing fees to the PROs. Webcasters, on the other hand, do.

At any rate, there must have been some miscommunication when you got your license from them; it certainly doesn't cover online lyrics sites.
Darryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Selling Your Own Products (CD/Book/Shirt/Mug etc.) Robin_Liss Making Money with CPC and/or CPM Programs 6 12-20-2001 11:01 AM
Selling Traffic amelen Archives of old posts from Let's Barter/Trade, Buy, & Sell 12 09-04-2000 08:10 PM
Selling Tip Darkrider Making Money with CPC and/or CPM Programs 5 03-03-2000 11:20 AM
Selling Sites petezippy Marketing Your Website Online 4 12-14-1999 11:44 AM
Selling Sites petezippy Making Money with CPC and/or CPM Programs 3 12-14-1999 11:32 AM

Please support our advertisers. They ensure our survival.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 PM.


GeekVillage.com is copyright © 1998-2015 Curiosity Cave - Science gifts for clever kids. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.